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Old 20-01-2009, 12:26   #46
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I would think that if the boat was documented, you could look up the owner's name and address and let him/her know what is going on.

Seems like there ought to be an EBay like rating system for brokers.
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Old 20-01-2009, 12:27   #47
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I think I have found a gem in the broker world. Always keeps me up to date on things and responds within a few hours if I have a question. Then again, I can call him direct if I like.

I don't think he is the norm tho. I tried to contact some of his co-workers before him w/o any responses. He is kinda spendy tho, but his contract lays out everything I can expect from him and I feel as if I am in good hands.

Now... Cat? Or Mono.... huh
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Old 20-01-2009, 18:20   #48
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Originally Posted by xxuxx View Post
Exactly...........My Point Exactly!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

Hi xxuxx (interesting handle you've got there). My counter rants were NOT directed at you or 90% of the posts on this thread. I have no illusions that just because I was a broker that even most brokers are "good". I had to respond to the one or two posts that essentially stated (and I paraphrase here) "all brokers are axxxxxxs".

I think it incorrect to state that all of any group are bad or good. In fact I even met a cruiser once that I didn't like.
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Old 20-01-2009, 18:46   #49
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Exactly...........My Point Exactly!!!!!!!!!!
Hi xxuxx (interesting handle you've got there)......."all brokers are axxxxxxs".

I think it incorrect to state that all of any group are bad or good. In fact I even met a cruiser once that I didn't like.[/quote]


Ummmm.....errrrr.......I've re-read my post and I never stated or implied all brokers are bad; however I did say the majority of them are bad. That would mean, 51% or more.......I am sure you would not place yourself with the majority,....would you? I also made reference to the fact that Not having a broker, or no broker is the very best way to go. Even as one poster stated how he loves his broker, the plain fact is that they cost money and a lot of it. Most of the time one does not get what one pays for when using a broker.
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Old 20-01-2009, 19:13   #50
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Hi xxuxx,

I apologize that I do not seem to be communicating very well tonight.

I did say in the very first line of my post "My counter rants were NOT directed at you or 90% of the posts on this thread"

So let me be perfectly clear. I think that you, xxuxx posted a fair and reasonable comment. I am not criticizing you at all in any way. In fact I agree with you which is why I quoted your post.

I think that 90% of the posts on this thread were reasonable and correct and I share the feelings myself that were expressed in most of the other posts.

My post is in reply to a couple of posts only by other people, not you xxuxx, that in my opinion did say things that criticized ALL brokers unfairly and unreasonably.

I think now I should quit while I'm behind.
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Old 20-01-2009, 19:21   #51
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Kneel , bow and kiss my hand and ye shall be forgiven

LOL...........no problem, no offense taken.........I really love this forum. So full of information and opinions. Cruising is expensive and now with the economy in the doldrums, a good cost cutting measure would be to cut out the broker.
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Old 20-01-2009, 19:37   #52
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Shady brokers....

In november of 2007, I was looking at a Douglas 31 located in Souris, Prince Edward Island. I live in Toronto. Anyway it looked pretty good from the photos, so my brother and I flew from Toronto to Halifax, overnighted there, and caught a puddle hopper to PEI in the morning. I rented a car and we drove about 120 km to Souris. On arrival I found the boat to look beautiful as the photos showed. Exterior hull was still mirror like and the only flaw I could see was a small crack in the rudder surface.

I borrowed a ladder from the harbour office, and climbed up. As my nose got level with the toe rail I could see most of the gasketing material was eroded away and the toe rail was 1/8 clear of the deck. Hmmm. I go a little higher and all the ports are dull and UV damaged. Frames scrapped and chipped. HMMM. So I get up on deck and go to the cockpit. Open up the lockers. 8-12 inches of rain water, and everything floating. The back deck had two spots of glass missing, about 4 inches in diameter where some vents were supposed to have been installed. The balsa core was missing, and the shallow holes were filled with water.

I move to the foredeck and view rusty junk and salt encrusted gear. My brother by this time is below and hollers at me "where are you?". I replied on the foredeck and he said "I can see every footstep you're taking. The deck is flexing!" "Come on down here and have a look!"

I go below, and we start looking. All the ports were loose, water had entered and every cushion was soaking wet. Lift the cushions and the lockers below were half full of water. I opened up a locker under the turn of the side deck. NO back, and bits disappearing into the void. Backing was rotted out. The Port side bulkhead looked beautiful from head level down about half way, then it too was rotted away.

We pulled the companionway steps to reveal a orangy rusty blob with some black belts on the front, and a large grey blob to one side. Engine and alternator?

Anyway at that point we both climbed down and the surveyor arrived. He'd driven from the other side of the island to meet me for no reason. Cost me $200 and we had some fun poking his knife into things before the owner arrived. Surveyors verbal report: RUN AWAY VERY FAST!. The owner arrived, as I had stipulated that the engine must be test run before closing the deal. I looked him and just laffed. So we drive back to Charlottetown, get bumped off two flights to Halifax. Finally snag two seats on the last plane out, then have to run like demented fools the length of Halifax Interantional to catch the last flight out to Toronto. Net result of this little debacle was 36hrs, and about $1200.

The photos taken by the broker has been so artisticly done that they showed nothing out of the ordinary. I called him after getting home to give him hell, and he just said the photos were sent by the owner (I had asked him about the photos, he said the broker came and took them.) , and he'd pull the listing.

Some brokers are good, some really should be rode out of town on a rail. Just after this mess, I met another broker by chance and ended up with my current boat.
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Old 22-01-2009, 11:44   #53
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Bummer, SabreKai. My most valuable lessons last year only cost me $600. Each. But I just put that in the budget. I'll keep running away till I don't have to.
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Old 22-01-2009, 12:41   #54
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I asked a similar question to this thread just a while ago. Lots of back and forth here on pros and cons of the brokers. Seems a lot of people just defend the brokers by saying we aren't posting about the good ones. But you have to note that the comments about bad brokers are true experiences and there really isn't defense. I've started contacting brokers lately about listings of theirs and have gotten some good honest answers, but would say half the time I've had to dig at them to find the whole story. Granted that the YW listing is met to get people to ask about the boat so you need to take that into account (worked because I contacted them about the boat), but after someone asks about the details you would think the brokers would want to be straight and not waste the buyers or their time if the boat doesn't seem a match. It is unforgivable for a buyer who asked about the condition of a boat to show up and find a MAJOR problem that the broker should have know about and told them of ahead of time. Someone memtioned that a good broker would ask buyers about their wants and needs (no "needs" really, this is about aboat and it is all "wants") and as a sles professional I agree this is sales 101. That made me realize that so far NONE of the brokers I have contacted have asked me anything about what I wanted.
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Old 22-01-2009, 13:01   #55
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I've only used boat brokers twice--once to buy my current boat, and once to put it up for sale. So far I'm batting 1000. Great experiences both times. I thank my lucky stars that I didn't get one of the bad ones described in this thread!
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Old 22-01-2009, 13:12   #56
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..........Someone memtioned that a good broker would ask buyers about their wants and needs (no "needs" really, this is about aboat and it is all "wants") and as a sles professional I agree this is sales 101. That made me realize that so far NONE of the brokers I have contacted have asked me anything about what I wanted.
Exactly!!! My point exactly..........they may have boat knowledge or even their captains license but this is only a small part of the success quotient of being a good broker. Most have little to no real salesmanship knowledge which includes but are not limited to: listening skills, follow-up skills, taking the extra step to get the deal done, making it easy for the client to say "Yes". etc etc etc
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Old 23-01-2009, 09:25   #57
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I don't know how anyone could say ,'the majority of brokers are bad brokers'! There are what, 1k,10k? brokers out there in the US alone? (are we talking about firms or people? Take Hunter/Catalina/Beneteau throughout the US for instance, that must be 60 dealers, each with say 5 salespersons. There is 300 right there)!

So how can any of us, unless they have purchased 100 boats in their lifetimes, say the majority of the brokers are bad!? I can understand if you say, I have purchased 7 boats in my lifetime, and all 7 brokers were worthless, so I am extrapolating this, but maybe you just the 7 bad ones out there.

Many of the boats you look for are now listed on yachtworld. It is the equivalent of MLS for real estate. Only brokers can list. So for a majority of us, you are going to deal with a broker, and if you are buying, not the one of your choice.

The solution is to be as an intelligent as possible buyer. Do your homework ahead of time. Double check to make sure that the broker isn't feeding you BS just to move on. After a few emails and few encounters, you will see if you have a guy who knows his stuff or not.

I say this as a professional salesperson. I own a high tech distribution firm. I have a Masters degree in engineering in the field of products I sell. So I think I know my products, and try to give my clients a solution to what they want. Many think they know what they want, or more than me, they might start out thinking, 'he is just a salesguy', but in many cases I wind up providing them what they originally wanted for less, or more performance for the same price. This is done because I know the products, and I know their applications.

There are brokers out there that are in my shoes, but in the boat industry. They have an active interest in boating. They know their products very well. They can listen (the most important aspect of sales is actually listening, not talking. As a famous trainer once said, ' you have 2 ears and one mouth, use them in that proportion') and understand what you want in a boat.

However, the broker is going to try to sell you what he has in his inventory. For many boaters, especially casual ones, this might be OK. I have a Beneteau. I was looking at a Hunter and catalina and even Jeaneau. I probably could have been happy with any of these boats for the daysailing and weekend cruising that I do. So if the Hunter dealer could have come up with a better deal, I might have been a hunter owner!

Sorry for the long post. I know lots have had bad experiences (including myself on the boat I purchased). But to categorically say most of the brokers are bad is just not a factual statement. And I am not sure about the 80/20 rule either. It makes sense, since lots happens this, but again, is this factual?

PS. The most amazing fact to me is that most people purchase a boat and don't get more than a 1hr test sail , and that is only after they have committed to a P&S. Imagine plunking down 100/200/300+k for something that you get to try for 45 minutes under one set of conditions only! This is how most sales are made. To me, this is more of an issue than who the broker is!
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Old 23-01-2009, 10:44   #58
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Quote:
I don't know how anyone could say ,'the majority of brokers are bad brokers'!
Bad depends on your expectations. It's easy to expect everything and the opinion at the end is a matter of if you are happy or not. Good brokers make you happy.

Quote:
The most amazing fact to me is that most people purchase a boat and don't get more than a 1hr test sail
Very true. You generally don't get to sail the boat except at the sea trial. You may not actually operate the boat yourself either. I think the general opinion is that it is not a time for giving free boat rides. People would do that. I know a broker that had someone want to use the boat as a free hotel room. If you could show up at any brokers door and want a boat ride it would be better than buying one. You can expect one but I doubt you can get one. Some times at boat shows you can arrange one when looking at new boats.

Brokers won't take the boat out without the owner there - ever. No broker will ever let you take the boat out yourself. Unless the owner has some desire to do so you won't get on the boat for a sail except at the sea trial. I never got one on either boat until after we had a signed contract. My wife and I did operate all the sails and engine ourselves at the sea trial with the owner aboard both times. We were out about 1 hour for the first boat and about 4 hours on the second boat. For the second boat we scheduled a real sea trial without the broker or surveyor but with the owner as the boat was stuck in the middle of the Delaware and Chesapeake Canal and you can't sail in the canal. I would do it that way again since if you hated the sail you could cancel the surveyor and bail with no money spent. When we did the sea trial with the surveyor it was minimal operations and engine check and took about 1/2 hour. The rest of the time was the haul out and surveyor working at the dock. It made for a better investigation of the boat. Surveyors underway do do very much other than the engine check and operation of equipment that can't be done at the dock.
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Old 23-01-2009, 13:01   #59
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Paul, Good points you bring up, but I wasn't even thinking about sea trial on a used boat. For that, I understand that you haven't purchased the boat yet, it still belongs to someone else. So if it was my boat, I would want to be there, and wouldn't want the prospect touching too much unless supervised. I was thinking of a new boat, that the dealer has at the dock. Or if you are purchasing a used model of something that he has a new one at the dock. For this, I don't understand why it is so hard to get a sea trial. (I do understand the broker doesn't want to waste time just giving rides, but on the other hand, plunking down that much money without a good test ride seems a bit strange.)
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Old 23-01-2009, 13:48   #60
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[quote=jbinbi;246992]I don't know how anyone could say ,'the majority of brokers are bad brokers'! There are what, 1k,10k? brokers out there in the US alone? (are we talking about firms or people? Take Hunter/Catalina/Beneteau throughout the US for instance, that must be 60 dealers, each with say 5 salespersons. There is 300 right there)!

So how can any of us, unless they have purchased 100 boats in their lifetimes, say the majority of the brokers are bad!? I can understand if you say, I have purchased 7 boats in my lifetime, and all 7 brokers were worthless, so I am extrapolating this, but maybe you just the 7 bad ones out there.
quote]This is highly doubtful. It's like saying I am picking 7 numbers and these numbers are the winning lotto jackpot numbers. Maybe they might be winning but 99.999999% of the time they do not. Brokers are like lotto numbers, you never know if you're going to win by getting a great one but it's pretty certain you won't and you'll get a stinker. I think the extrapolation favors stinker brokers but then again that depends on ones standards. If ones level of discernment is low, as may be the case with yourself, you'll think your broker is a barrel on monkeys, the nuts, the greatest thing since sliced bread but if your level of discernment is high your opinion may Not be so high of your broker.
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