Cruisers Forum
 


Reply
  This discussion is proudly sponsored by:
Please support our sponsors and let them know you heard about their products on Cruisers Forums. Advertise Here
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 07-03-2012, 03:30   #1
Marine Service Provider
 
niel12's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Jeffreysbay
Boat: 365 Dean Catamaran
Posts: 249
A-Frame for a Mast?

Has anyone any info about this mast configuration? SMG boast phenonmal speeds without a boom and i am wondering about the actual configuration of the sails lowering and hoisting them .... seems a bit vague on info but agreed, interesting!
niel12 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2012, 03:39   #2
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: on board, Australia
Boat: 11meter Power catamaran
Posts: 3,648
Images: 3
Re: A frame for a mast?

Another vessel

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ran-70486.html
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2012, 05:31   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Yuma Island
Posts: 1,579
Images: 15
Re: A frame for a mast?

I don't know about the A-mast in particular, other than the old AquaCat beachcats had them.

I do know about boomless rigs, having one myself, and yes, they're fast. Mr Randy Smyth is a believer, you don't have to take my word for it.
tamicatana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2012, 08:57   #4
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 3,731
Images: 4
Re: A frame for a mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by niel12 View Post
Has anyone any info about this mast configuration? SMG boast phenonmal speeds without a boom and i am wondering about the actual configuration of the sails lowering and hoisting them .... seems a bit vague on info but agreed, interesting!
No lowering or hoisting, all sails furl. Can't get any easier than that.
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
https://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2012, 11:41   #5
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: A frame for a mast?

Sure make a guy wish he had invested better LOL Love the idea of the all furling sails !! a guy could sail till he was 90 with rig like that !!LOL just dreaming !!
__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-03-2012, 12:30   #6
Registered User
 
deckofficer's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Northern and Southern California
Boat: too many
Posts: 3,731
Images: 4
Re: A frame for a mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobconnie View Post
Sure make a guy wish he had invested better LOL Love the idea of the all furling sails !! a guy could sail till he was 90 with rig like that !!LOL just dreaming !!
Bob, I hear you loud and clear. The SMG 50 is currently for sale, and even at the newly reduced price of $524,000, would require me to sell my home (which I planned to anyway) plus my vacation residence that I was going to keep when too old to cruise (we have a topic on this that you and I have participated) and would require most of my cruising kitty to pull off. So I guess I'll allow "Number One" to be owned by a second owner before I become the 3rd. lol

2005 SMG 50 Plus - Boats.com
__________________
Bob
USCG Unlimited Tonnage Open Ocean (CMA)
https://tbuckets.lefora.com/
deckofficer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 09:41   #7
Senior Cruiser
 
sandy daugherty's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: near Annapolis
Boat: PDQ 36 & Atlantic 42
Posts: 1,178
Re: A frame for a mast?

With a bit of research you will find dozens of A-frame mast systems. You might also find a few yard-queens in the less expensive marinas all around. Were they anywhere close to the performance and ease of use claimed, there would be more of them in the water than sitting on sagging jack stands.
The issues, in descending order are weight aloft, windage, design and construction issues, and weirdness. The last is of course a plus to some observers.
The espoused advantages are a presumed disadvantage in the aerodynamics of a mast, the need to be headed into the wind to reef, the need for a horizontal Guillotine otherwise called a boom, and the boring slavery of convention.
One of the most respected researchers in sail aerodynamics, Howard I Chapelle, is often quoted as saying that a mast reduces the power of a sail by 30%. That is questionable, and does not address solutions like unstayed masts and rotating masts. Nor does it agree with the use of wing-sails in ultra high performance vessels. I suspect that were this number proven to be much lower, A lot of unsuccessful attempts might never have been attempted!
There is still some appeal in the concept, (in my case where it would reduce the weight and complexity of the main bulkhead in a catamaran) if the problems of weight, windage and bare pole drag could be addressed. WW I fighters found advantage in streamlined struts. Airfoil shaped aluminum extrusions were found on almost every aircraft built in the postwar Biplane era. I vote for a streamlined A-frame cross-section.
Tall, thin masts are held in column by multiple spreaders and a spiderweb of rod and wire diamond triangulations. They all sing in a brisk wind. Where does the energy for the music come from? Drag. I would vote for a very carefully engineered carbon fiber leg held rigid by internal webbing. If needed, it could be a bit fatter in the middle, and both legs should rotate.
Booms are a hazard. So are redheads and motorcycles. Live with it. They make to most common sailing task, tacking, SO much easier, and its nice that sails can fall into such an orderly pile on top of a boom. I vote to keep booms. A conveniently controlled boom brake on the main and jib-boom would be icing on the hot dog. Yum. [an acquired taste, like catamarans.]
I don't like vertical furling sails on larger boats. They are heavy, require a winch to furl making it painstakingly slow and incredibly dangerous as the wind whips the sail violently, inflicting injury to the crew or possibly a fatal blow to the head by a barber-haul block left loose. You are reefing because the wind is picking up, right? A well trained main drops into a lazybag in seconds.
So, you may rightfully ask, if both legs rotate, what's happening at the top of the "A"? It's all loosy-goosey, right? And thats where you put a bunch of delicate stuff. How do you keep that orderly? I don't know. You figure it out and tell me. Inquiring minds want to know.....
sandy daugherty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 10:14   #8
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Montegut LA.
Boat: Now we need to get her to Louisiana !! she's ours
Posts: 3,421
Re: A frame for a mast?

You got that right Bob !! have to take a Big Loan on my great Grand kids and sell everything else to be the 4th owner on that one ! I will just buy a couple of powerd winchs LOL and show Connie where the button is !! all taken care of on my Motor Sailor !!
__________________
Bob and Connie
bobconnie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 10:44   #9
Registered User
 
multihullsailor6's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cruising in the SUN! Now hauled out in Malta for the winter.
Boat: 37' Oldenziel cat
Posts: 461
Re: A frame for a mast?

Niel12, have a look at this thread:

WishBone Sailing Rig - Boat Design Forums

Also show some good pictures there of A-frame boats.
__________________
Roger
Catamaran "Burnout"
multihullsailor6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 10:51   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Boat: 'Pacific 30' sloop - being optimized for singlehanding
Posts: 153
Re: A frame for a mast?

Sandy Dougherty hits it right on the head! The analysis of A-frame rigs is absolutely correct, and here is my experience to validate that statement. In the 90's I sailed with friends of mine on a 49 foot A-frame, deep keel, narrow beam "cutter"; i.e. it had a furling yankee jib and a furling genoa forestays'l. No mainsail. The boat was almost a metre boat in shape. The A-frame was mounted at about station 9, and tilted forward so the mast head (apex of the frames) was over about station 4. She had a complex system of back stays to the transom using a pair of aft-facing spreaders. I can summarize the results.

Cons: too much weight aloft; weird windage issues (docking, running, heaving to); very high rig cost with the custom hardware required; poor performance on all points of sail and winds with the exception listed in the "pros"; there was no way to add sail area for downwind courses; reefing was limited to one sail or the other coming down; lee helm developed too easily; and I would not begin to address the engineering issues and stresses on the hull and rig.

Pros: the genoa forestays'l cleared the a-frame nicely with no chafe, great speed when close reaching in a good breeze; all roller furling made for a quick dousing of the sails.

Not a recommended approach in my opinion. If I were to get creative with rigs, I'd take the free-standing carbon spar approach. Cat ketch, cat schooner, or just a very modern una rig.
Billy Higgins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 11:18   #11
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,556
Re: A frame for a mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Higgins View Post
In the 90's I sailed with friends of mine on a 49 foot A-frame, deep keel, narrow beam "cutter"; i.e. it had a furling yankee jib and a furling genoa forestays'l. No mainsail.

Was that Nimrod?
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 11:19   #12
Registered User
 
Sand crab's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Gig Harbor, WA
Boat: 34' Crowther tri sold 16' Kayak now
Posts: 5,067
Re: A-Frame for a Mast?

Here's one on YW. Note that the hull says composite but I recall it being out of steel. 22 tons displacement reinforces my recollection.
2006 Gulyas Custom Galethea Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
__________________
Slowly going senile but enjoying the ride.
Sand crab is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 11:21   #13
֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎֍֎

Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 15,136
Re: A-Frame for a Mast?

I think in the late 80's early 90's one of the "big names" did a one-off concept boat with all sorts of high tech new ideas in it. I don't recall the name, but think it did have an a-frame mast and no shrouds and this was supposed to be a Big Thing. But, there was no great followup and no great change in masts and rigs.

Could be, like Hunter losing the keel on Thursday's Child (?) the entire boat was something the makers wanted to move on past.
hellosailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 11:26   #14
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Boat: 'Pacific 30' sloop - being optimized for singlehanding
Posts: 153
Re: A-Frame for a Mast?

Adelie - It was indeed 'Nimrod'. A very unusual boat, well built, and quite striking. But the rig was flawed, I have to say. The SA/Disp ratio was clearly too low.
Billy Higgins is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2012, 13:28   #15
Moderator
 
Adelie's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: La Ciudad de la Misión Didacus de Alcalá en Alta California, Virreinato de Nueva España
Boat: Cal 20
Posts: 20,556
Re: A-Frame for a Mast?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hellosailor View Post
I think in the late 80's early 90's one of the "big names" did a one-off concept boat with all sorts of high tech new ideas in it. I don't recall the name, but think it did have an a-frame mast and no shrouds and this was supposed to be a Big Thing. But, there was no great followup and no great change in masts and rigs.

Could be, like Hunter losing the keel on Thursday's Child (?) the entire boat was something the makers wanted to move on past.
Amoco Procyon
Backed by Amoco and Harken.
PROCYON project........a Bold experiment - Boat Design Forums
__________________
Num Me Vexo?
For all of your celestial navigation questions: https://navlist.net/
A house is but a boat so poorly built and so firmly run aground no one would think to try and refloat it.
Adelie is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
mast

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Does a 1968 Cal 28 have a steel beam under the mast compression post? Whilehewill Construction, Maintenance & Refit 8 05-09-2012 07:52
Stew Leonard Sued for Boating Death Soundbounder Flotsam & Sailing Miscellany 6 11-03-2012 08:49
For Trade: Looking for Sailboat granby132 Classifieds Archive 4 08-03-2012 09:14
Crew Available: Couple Looking for Sailing Adventure ratherbesailin Crew Archives 5 07-03-2012 20:56

Advertise Here


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:44.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.