45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

[tp12]

Originally Posted by Andrew Grace

Worth checking out this podcast as there is a direct comparison daggerboard 1190 vs 1160 Mini Keels, the main driver is the less wetted surface area, looks like it will be a fast cat and the 1190 hits the water end of the month in Vietnam.

https://youtu.be/B-iTyxW5ApY

Thanks Andrew, I'll check that out next.

Just watching your unboxing of your coffee machine now...

Sent from my SM-T520 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[Factor]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you could well be right. From reading of brochures of fast cats I understood this is main reason for draggerboards - lee shore escape.

However,
I have also read though that cat with draggerboards up draws only 78 cm in water. Yeah, if you exclude rudder

Someone believed salesman and paid the price with rudder breakage.

Plenty of daggerboard cats have dagger rudders as well, or kickup rudders

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you could well be right. From reading of brochures of fast cats I understood this is main reason for draggerboards - lee shore escape.

Really? Which brochures claim that?

[ol1970]

So reading through this thread, I was wondering why (other than the mast height) the Outremer 45 would not be a good consideration for this type of boat? It is on my short list and the light wind and up wind performance seems to be pretty impressive. Just curious of the opinions of the experts on here of that particular sailing vessel. (sorry if this is hijacking the thread)

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

Really? Which brochures claim that?

been a while but must have been french ones.

you sound like well informed, what is current thinking ?

when is blowing drift can be significant as higher water layers actually move in direction of wind. Only deep draggeerboards help here but if you have to raise them then not much good.

[Barra]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

been a while but must have been french ones.

you sound like well informed, what is current thinking ?

when is blowing drift can be significant as higher water layers actually move in direction of wind. Only deep draggeerboards help here but if you have to raise them then not much good.

I dont know what your smoking mate but it must be good!

The water layers move in the direction of the wind??? Are you talking about waves or some other phenomenon? If so what have you named it??

Daggerboards are high aspect/ low drag adjustable leeway reduction device

They dont act against waves. They reduce leeway from the sail plan.

Yes they would be better at sailing off a lee shore but that is not the reason for them. Thats according to my boats french owners manual at least.

BTW it also says my draft with boards up is 80cm INCLUDING rudders. If anything its a little bit less than that. Kick up rudders would be maybe 30cm less again.

I very much doubt a bit of wind wave action from escaping the said lee shore would break my boards. How are these waves any different to waves anywhere else? We arent talking about sailing in the breakers are we?

If so pass the crack pipe please i need a toke....

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by ol1970

So reading through this thread, I was wondering why (other than the mast height) the Outremer 45 would not be a good consideration for this type of boat? It is on my short list and the light wind and up wind performance seems to be pretty impressive. Just curious of the opinions of the experts on here of that particular sailing vessel. (sorry if this is hijacking the thread)

Yea, its a good one. I am really excited to see the 4X in the flesh.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

you could well be right. From reading of brochures of fast cats I understood this is main reason for draggerboards - lee shore escape.

However,
I have also read though that cat with draggerboards up draws only 78 cm in water. Yeah, if you exclude rudder

Someone believed salesman and paid the price with rudder breakage.

That 78cm would include the rudders. With our rudders floating or raised we can navigate in water less than 50cm deep

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

That 78cm would include the rudders. With our rudders floating or raised we can navigate in water less than 50cm deep

I've always wondered how you steer in that situation.

[earthbm]

TS42 seems to do everything right, simple, with displacement kept light, like Outremers used to be


~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dragonfly 35 Tri

[tp12]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

I've always wondered how you steer in that situation.

Kick up rudders can be partially down, no lower than the bottom of the hull, providing some 'grip'. Also, if motoring, you can use both engines to steer.

I would also add that you can steer with the sailplan but I appreciate that it might not be desirable in skinny water due to proximity to the beach or other hard things..it'd keep you on your toes though!

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Barra

I dont know what your smoking mate but it must be good!

The water layers move in the direction of the wind??? Are you talking about waves or some other phenomenon? If so what have you named it??

Daggerboards are high aspect/ low drag adjustable leeway reduction device

They dont act against waves. They reduce leeway from the sail plan.

Yes they would be better at sailing off a lee shore but that is not the reason for them. Thats according to my boats french owners manual at least.

BTW it also says my draft with boards up is 80cm INCLUDING rudders. If anything its a little bit less than that. Kick up rudders would be maybe 30cm less again.

I very much doubt a bit of wind wave action from escaping the said lee shore would break my boards. How are these waves any different to waves anywhere else? We arent talking about sailing in the breakers are we?

If so pass the crack pipe please i need a toke....

Waves move often in same direction as wind. In strong conditions layers of water move with the wind due to wind&waves. Strange you have not noticed that while sailing in some weather.

I do not know Phisa 42. But sailed catana 43. Hope you not one of these that believe salesman too much.

Guy I talked to was 10 cm out. Looks to me about right

[44'cruisingcat]

I prefer having kick-up rudders with daggerboard boats. Outboard motors, or shaft drives too.

But even with fixed rudder's draught at 0.8, you're still able to go (with due caution) places a a minikeel boat would be solidly aground or on the rocks....

In very strong wind/sea conditions where some daggerboards might be vulnerable, you'd simply not lower them 100%.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

I've always wondered how you steer in that situation.

When we're muckng around in shallow water, we remove the lock-down dowels from the rudders and let them float. They float about 80% down anyway, and steering is fine. When it gets real shallow and we lift the rudders, we steer with the engines.

Note: we're not sailing here, just moving in the final few (maybe tens of)metres to an anchorage.

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

I prefer having kick-up rudders with daggerboard boats. Outboard motors, or shaft drives too.

But even with fixed rudder's draught at 0.8, you're still able to go (with due caution) places a a minikeel boat would be solidly aground or on the rocks....

In very strong wind/sea conditions where some daggerboards might be vulnerable, you'd simply not lower them 100%.

fully agree.