45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

[ejlindahl]

Several years ago I saw an Outremer 42 for sale with mini keels along the lines of a Lagoon. I imagine someone at the factory or a dealer has a pretty good idea of performance delta between that one and one with daggerboards. I think the advert stated the difference was not significant, what ever that means. Similarly I recall someone fitting daggerboards to an older lagoon 42 (TPI?). It would be interesting to see how these sets of boats performed against their sisters, with similar equipment and loads. Someone go line up this race for us......

[solarbri]

Well, I just raced against a very well sailed Lagoon 42 TPI last weekend. My very different, 36' biplane cat has daggerboards, and I would not have wanted to point any higher than they were. Sailing at more or less the same speed. I typically sail at 40 degrees apparent to weather, 35 if it's blowing good. I can pinch much higher, but it's slower.
I'm not so sure it's a huge difference!
I would think that windage has a much bigger factor in upwind performance.
When sailing upwind, the only thing making the boat go forward is the sails. Every other thing on the boat including THE boat, are trying to push the boat backwards.
I used to think daggerboards were crucial, and even though I'd still prefer them, I'm not so sure it's as important as I once thought.
Being able to lift them is a huge plus.


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[yeloya]

I've sailed Outremer 51, Gunboat 62, Aikane 56, Catana 58 with daggerboard, all range of FP, some Logoons without..All I can say is that unless you sail exactly the same boat with mini keel and daggerbord versions and for quite a while under different AWA and sea conditions, it's impossible to judge what is the added benefit of daggerboard. I've read various (and all respected) naval architects; there is no consensus between them either..


Some of these boats had carbon stick, Outremer rotative carbon one with kevlar shrouds, etc. That make the comparison even more complicated..


My basic take away;


-daggerboards do help in giving less leeway for sure on light winds. After 8 kts of speed, it is recommended to fully pull them out. To be honnest, I couldn't feel the advantage of reduced drag when you reach or run. It has to be said that the boats with daggerbords are fast anyway.
-not all of the keels are the same and the effect of keels differs very much with the shape and the overall length of hulls. FP (new models) is using very deep keels whilst Nautitech for example is using shoaler keels. I cannot say the difference as I haven't sailed enough any Nautitech.


If I had the money, I would rather go with a carbon mast rather than the daggerboard cat. I am saying this bearing in mind the negatives of daggerboards as well, ie. grounding risks, used volume in hulls, lost in load carrying capacity, etc..


Cheers


Yeloya

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I've sailed Outremer 51, Gunboat 62, Aikane 56, Catana 58 with daggerboard, all range of FP, some Logoons without..All I can say is that unless you sail exactly the same boat with mini keel and daggerbord versions and for quite a while under different AWA and sea conditions, it's impossible to judge what is the added benefit of daggerboard. I've read various (and all respected) naval architects; there is no consensus between them either..


Some of these boats had carbon stick, Outremer rotative carbon one with kevlar shrouds, etc. That make the comparison even more complicated..


My basic take away;


-daggerboards do help in giving less leeway for sure on light winds. After 8 kts of speed, it is recommended to fully pull them out. To be honnest, I couldn't feel the advantage of reduced drag when you reach or run. It has to be said that the boats with daggerbords are fast anyway.
-not all of the keels are the same and the effect of keels differs very much with the shape and the overall length of hulls. FP (new models) is using very deep keels whilst Nautitech for example is using shoaler keels. I cannot say the difference as I haven't sailed enough any Nautitech.


If I had the money, I would rather go with a carbon mast rather than the daggerboard cat. I am saying this bearing in mind the negatives of daggerboards as well, ie. grounding risks, used volume in hulls, lost in load carrying capacity, etc..


Cheers


Yeloya

Looks like Eric Larouge would probably agree with you.

From his web site....
"Our early designs 20 years ago already gave catamarans pointing well, tacking correctly, easy to steer with shoal keels. This proved that fast cruising catamarans could be created without complicate systems! AZULI is one of this generation and she is still winning races and crossing oceans!"


But what would Grainger, White and Larouge know compared to Cyclops and his side kick.

[boneboy]

I think while Chris White continues to always innovate, and the "flaps" on the keels may help(?), the design of foils also continue to progress as well. The lift (physically decreasing displacement - not pressure to windward) from C foils (which will probably someday be more common on cruising boats) will make a bigger difference. The distinction between cruising and performance boats is a continuous line dependent on many factors as pointed out above. I think individual preference on the different aspects of each component probably ate more important.


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[Factor]

I owned a Mini keel boat and would do so again, I owned a daggerboard boat and would do so again. All daggerboards are not created equal any more than than all mini keels. And you can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig. If you have a boat that is heavy and fat with big wetted surface area and poor weight distribution and a silly small mainsail, then daggerboards are not going to help. Equally a well thought out properly organised nicely drawn boat with good sail plan and mini keels will be a good thing.

Its about the package and not one single individual design item. Seawind are doing an 1190 sport version of the 1160 lite, with Daggerboards and dagger rudders, so I look forward to seeing the comparative difference there, having said that it has a slightly taller mast with synthetic rigging and carbon targa bar and a few other changes that take another half a tonne out of the boat and give it more power so those items will have a benefit, but will make a direct comparison a little harder.

I have sailed many lightwave 38s (Grainger Design) including a 38 that was built a little lighter by the factory for an ex Corsair 36 owner, that boat also was built with a single dagger board, the difference between a standard LW38 and that boat was marked, it was faster and pointed a significant degree higher and exhibited far less leeway. So far that is the most direct comparison I have been able to make. For many owners the difference in sailing performance may not have been important, for this owner it was. For many owners the extra performance is important, for many owners it isnt and for many other owners performance is at the bottom or their list long after luxury and air con and 27 toilets and 15 bunks.

A good boat is a good boat irrespective of keel system, and a bad one is a bad one. Equally as important is sail plan, beam to length, SA-Displacement, bridgdeck clearance and the like. You pays your money - you takes your choices. Just remember that an extra few degrees of point and a reduction in leeway will have a significant affect over a reasonable distance. point 5 degrees higher over 100 miles, and you are 17 mile better off in VMG terms.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Looks like Eric Larouge would probably agree with you.

From his web site....
"Our early designs 20 years ago already gave catamarans pointing well, tacking correctly, easy to steer with shoal keels. This proved that fast cruising catamarans could be created without complicate systems! AZULI is one of this generation and she is still winning races and crossing oceans!"


But what would Grainger, White and Larouge know compared to Cyclops and his side kick.

Link please?

OK, don't bother I found it. http://www.lerouge-yachts.com/cat_TKS.htm

Once again, it doesn't support your argument. In fact the first sentence is directly contrary to your assertion:
Lerouge (note spelling) starts the article by saying:

"Technical answers (deep daggerboards) are easy to find to reach the ultimate performance."

Followed by:
"There is no doubt that daggerboards give the best performance: More lift upwind and less drag downwind. "

The exact opposite of your claim.

So far every reference when examined has either failed to support your assertion or has absolutely contradicted it.

Once again: please provide links to all of this evidence which you claim shows that the difference between daggerboards and minikeels is insignificant.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Looks like Eric Larouge would probably agree with you.

From his web site....
"Our early designs 20 years ago already gave catamarans pointing well, tacking correctly, easy to steer with shoal keels. This proved that fast cruising catamarans could be created without complicate systems! AZULI is one of this generation and she is still winning races and crossing oceans!"


But what would Grainger, White and Larouge know compared to Cyclops and his side kick.

I take it you mean Erik Lerouge. Just remember that Azuli (I have sailed on one - have you) is otherwise a performance boat, eg no standing headroom in bridgedeck etc.

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by StuM

Link please?

OK, don't bother I found it. Cat Twin Keel

Once again, it doesn't support your argument. In fact the first sentence is directly contrary to your assertion:
Lerouge (note spelling) starts the article by saying:

"Technical answers (deep daggerboards) are easy to find to reach the ultimate performance."

Followed by:
"There is no doubt that daggerboards give the best performance: More lift upwind and less drag downwind. "

The exact opposite of your claim.

So far every reference when examined has either failed to support your assertion or has absolutely contradicted it.

Once again: please provide links to all of this evidence which you claim shows that the difference between daggerboards and minikeels is insignificant.

I think you have taken a small portion of the interview. From the same interview and same link read the following quotes:

"However, daggerboards are a nuisance for cruising. They are expensive to built, need care, take room in the hulls, must be handled, are vulnerable and a lifting rudder must be used while it is unwise to dry out on the hulls or propellers... The best result requires daggerboards on the hulls centrelines, which gives accommodation problems in the smaller models.
These drawbacks may be tolerated on some cruising grounds but they quickly become problems when sailing tidal waters. The pleasure is the access to small anchorages without fear of hitting with a 7' dagger or beach without damaging hulls, propellers or rudders.
If reaching shoal waters needs to raise the daggerboards, going to windward becomes difficult and even handling the boat in close quarters under engines may become a problem without enough lateral resistance in the water. "

Nevertheless, Lerouge is not the only naval architect , there are many others who are firm believer of daggerboards and they have some valid points..

Yeloya

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I think you have taken a small portion of the interview. From the same interview and same link read the following quotes:

"However, daggerboards are a nuisance for cruising. They are expensive to built, need care, take room in the hulls, must be handled, are vulnerable and a lifting rudder must be used while it is unwise to dry out on the hulls or propellers... The best result requires daggerboards on the hulls centrelines, which gives accommodation problems in the smaller models.
These drawbacks may be tolerated on some cruising grounds but they quickly become problems when sailing tidal waters. The pleasure is the access to small anchorages without fear of hitting with a 7' dagger or beach without damaging hulls, propellers or rudders.
If reaching shoal waters needs to raise the daggerboards, going to windward becomes difficult and even handling the boat in close quarters under engines may become a problem without enough lateral resistance in the water. "

Nevertheless, Lerouge is not the only naval architect , there are many others who are firm believer of daggerboards and they have some valid points..

Yeloya

Yes, but the issue under discussion is performance, not convenience, etc. I think that aspect was treated directly by Stu's quote.

Jim

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by solarbri

SNIP

When sailing upwind, the only thing making the boat go forward is the sails.

SNIP

Way back when I was just a whipper sanpper sailing on my Dad's boats in Miami I got an invite to crew on a SORC race. I was just a kid, not even in high school, but the guy who owned the boat had been sailing with me and my dad on my Dad's boat and was impressed with my ability to surf the boat in a following sea. Probably because kids in the late 50s and early 60s spent lots of time surfing.

I know you are talking about upwind sailing, but if there is any sea way at all you can gain an advantage by adjusting the course somewhat and surfing down the backs of waves. Especially in light winds and rather small 2/3/4 foot waves this can make a big difference.

Next we come to sails. I have no doubt you could put me on a performance boat with bleeding edge dagger/center boards and Dennis Connor on a fixed keel boat and Connor would beat me like a rented mule.

All this talk about theory and silliness of a 7.5% (or any other number) advantages ignores the fact that good sail trim and a good hand on the tiller is way more important than any supposed benefit from dagger boards.

If folks spent as much time trying to improve their sailing skills as they did arguing about theory their boats would sail a lot faster.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Factor

I owned a Mini keel boat and would do so again, I owned a daggerboard boat and would do so again. All daggerboards are not created equal any more than than all mini keels. And you can put lipstick on a pig but its still a pig. If you have a boat that is heavy and fat with big wetted surface area and poor weight distribution and a silly small mainsail, then daggerboards are not going to help. Equally a well thought out properly organised nicely drawn boat with good sail plan and mini keels will be a good thing.

Its about the package and not one single individual design item. Seawind are doing an 1190 sport version of the 1160 lite, with Daggerboards and dagger rudders, so I look forward to seeing the comparative difference there, having said that it has a slightly taller mast with synthetic rigging and carbon targa bar and a few other changes that take another half a tonne out of the boat and give it more power so those items will have a benefit, but will make a direct comparison a little harder.

I have sailed many lightwave 38s (Grainger Design) including a 38 that was built a little lighter by the factory for an ex Corsair 36 owner, that boat also was built with a single dagger board, the difference between a standard LW38 and that boat was marked, it was faster and pointed a significant degree higher and exhibited far less leeway. So far that is the most direct comparison I have been able to make. For many owners the difference in sailing performance may not have been important, for this owner it was. For many owners the extra performance is important, for many owners it isnt and for many other owners performance is at the bottom or their list long after luxury and air con and 27 toilets and 15 bunks.

A good boat is a good boat irrespective of keel system, and a bad one is a bad one. Equally as important is sail plan, beam to length, SA-Displacement, bridgdeck clearance and the like. You pays your money - you takes your choices. Just remember that an extra few degrees of point and a reduction in leeway will have a significant affect over a reasonable distance. point 5 degrees higher over 100 miles, and you are 17 mile better off in VMG terms.

These are absolute words of wisdom, and very well said. Factor probably has more time sailing different multis than anyone on this forum and I for one respect his opinion. I'm a big fan of the Seawinds and hope to hear his opinions on the 1190 Sport.


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[StuM]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I think you have taken a small portion of the interview.

Yes, the relevant part when this discussion is about the performance difference between daggerboards and mini keels.

From the same interview and same link read the following quotes:

"However, daggerboards are a nuisance for cruising. They are expensive to built, need care, take room in the hulls, must be handled, are vulnerable and a lifting rudder must be used while it is unwise to dry out on the hulls or propellers... The best result requires daggerboards on the hulls centrelines, which gives accommodation problems in the smaller models.
These drawbacks may be tolerated on some cruising grounds but they quickly become problems when sailing tidal waters. The pleasure is the access to small anchorages without fear of hitting with a 7' dagger or beach without damaging hulls, propellers or rudders.
If reaching shoal waters needs to raise the daggerboards, going to windward becomes difficult and even handling the boat in close quarters under engines may become a problem without enough lateral resistance in the water. "

None of that is relevant to the question of performance - which is why I didn't bother to include it.

FWIW, I completely agree with Erik on this and that is why I excluded daggerboard cats from consideration when I was choosing my current boat.

Nevertheless, Lerouge is not the only naval architect , there are many others who are firm believer of daggerboards and they have some valid points..

Chris White, Tony Grainger and Erik Lerouge have all been quoted by the naysayers in support of their contention that "daggerboards offer no significant advantage over mini keels". But when you look at what those three respected designers say, it is clear that they do not say that at all.

They have valid reservations about daggerboards for cruising, as I do, but those reservations have nothing to do with performance. None of them deny the performance advantage.

So I am still waiting for a link from those naysayers to support the claim about "all the information now available" showing that the performance difference is insignificant.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by yeloya

I think you have taken a small portion of the interview. From the same interview and same link read the following quotes:

"However, daggerboards are a nuisance for cruising. They are expensive to built, need care, take room in the hulls, must be handled, are vulnerable and a lifting rudder must be used while it is unwise to dry out on the hulls or propellers... The best result requires daggerboards on the hulls centrelines, which gives accommodation problems in the smaller models.
These drawbacks may be tolerated on some cruising grounds but they quickly become problems when sailing tidal waters. The pleasure is the access to small anchorages without fear of hitting with a 7' dagger or beach without damaging hulls, propellers or rudders.
If reaching shoal waters needs to raise the daggerboards, going to windward becomes difficult and even handling the boat in close quarters under engines may become a problem without enough lateral resistance in the water. "

Nevertheless, Lerouge is not the only naval architect , there are many others who are firm believer of daggerboards and they have some valid points..

Yeloya

Gee, what a load of drivel. It seems some people, even supposedly "respected" designers don't realise that boards don't have to be either 100% up or 100% down.


The fact is, if it's too shallow for 100% board, you can use less. And we can go places the minikeel boats simply cannot go.

So if I really needed to sail to windward in 1 metre deep water, sure I'd suffer extra leeway. But the minikeel boat WOULD BE AGROUND. And if it's rock, well, turns out they were more vulnerable than me, weren't they?


A nuisance for cruising? Well I guess all that pesky sail handling is a PITA for some. The reality of cruising with daggerboards is that most of the time you simply leave them raised. And benefit from the reduced drag. You only lower them for windward sailing.

And I can't dry out? News to me!

Daggerboards need to be on the centrelines? Absolute ********!

I can't get into shallow anchorages? Pig's arse!

TBH I have never before read so much complete and utter rubbish in so short a statement!

[Factor]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

So if I really needed to sail to windward in 1 metre deep water, sure I'd suffer extra leeway. But the minikeel boat WOULD BE AGROUND. And if it's rock, well, turns out they were more vulnerable than me, weren't they?

You don't sail to windward anyway, in fact you don't sail - you motor everywhere, I know this because Seaslug told me.