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Old 20-03-2016, 22:34   #61
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

Yeah, he seems to have forgotten where and when, or maybe he dreamed it?


And TBH I don't really know what point he thought he was making. Daggerboard boats aren't allowed to motor now or what?
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Old 20-03-2016, 22:40   #62
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

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So I am still waiting for a link from those naysayers to support the claim about "all the information now available" showing that the performance difference is insignificant.
I guess it will ultimately come down to someone's definition of "significant". What's significant? A 5% advantage? 10%? 20%? 30%?

Is arriving at an anchorage a couple of hours earlier significant?

Maybe...
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Old 21-03-2016, 06:28   #63
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

I think we all are saying the same thing in a different way..

I believe everybody (including Mr Lerouge) does agree that daggerboards are adding to the performance of a cat. The term significant is relative, as said already, for some people 5 % is significant, for others even 20% may not be.
Again everybody (including Mr Lerouge) would agree that daggerboards have some drawbacks already discussed. For some people these are offsetting the advantages of daggerboards, for some other it doesn't.
That's why some people go for a daggerboard cats, others don't..

If all the boats were the same, CF would be very boring, wouldn't it ? ..

Yeloya
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Old 21-03-2016, 08:44   #64
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

44CC, I (and I suspect others) took Seaslug's comments about seeing you motoring twice as revealing more about himself than the subject of this thread: even if true, does anyone expect any boat not to motor occasionally in light air over 27,000 miles; and, even if true, what does it tell us about performance cruising cats, or boards versus keels? His unprovoked attack on you and your sail inventory (and his description of you as 'beloved') does, however, tell us something about himself: he obviously holds some simmering resentment towards you and your boat. Envy, perhaps?

I know I envy your boat and your ability to home-build such a beautiful vessel, but that is irrelevant. As you have pointed out, even those naval architects Seaslug cites as preferring keels on cruising cats acknowledge that the former outperform the latter. And performance is the subject of this thread.

Brad
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Old 21-03-2016, 09:36   #65
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

I sailed for about 10 years on a Chris White designed Voyager 45 which had two keels and one daggerboard.

The boat drew 3'6" board up and about 7'3" board down.
The board was located in the center of the starboard hull and went down through the keel.

We rarely used the board unless we needed to sail extremely close hauled, as in racing or needing to clear an obstruction of some sort. When we did use it, it did make a difference, especially in light air.

The Voyager 45 is not the fastest of Chris White's boats, but it stands up well against the rest of the cruising cats. We didn't push her hard for the most part, but still saw 10 knots in flat water, 19 knots surfing.

I really enjoyed the combination of two keels/one daggerboard. Being able to take a 45' boat into less than 4' of water and still being able to utilize the board's windward ability when needed was great.
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Old 21-03-2016, 12:20   #66
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
44CC, I (and I suspect others) took Seaslug's comments about seeing you motoring twice as revealing more about himself than the subject of this thread: even if true, does anyone expect any boat not to motor occasionally in light air over 27,000 miles; and, even if true, what does it tell us about performance cruising cats, or boards versus keels? His unprovoked attack on you and your sail inventory (and his description of you as 'beloved') does, however, tell us something about himself: he obviously holds some simmering resentment towards you and your boat. Envy, perhaps?
Brad
You are overthinking it - he is just a troll.
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Old 21-03-2016, 15:31   #67
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

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I think we all are saying the same thing in a different way..

I believe everybody (including Mr Lerouge) does agree that daggerboards are adding to the performance of a cat. The term significant is relative, as said already, for some people 5 % is significant, for others even 20% may not be.
Again everybody (including Mr Lerouge) would agree that daggerboards have some drawbacks already discussed. For some people these are offsetting the advantages of daggerboards, for some other it doesn't.
That's why some people go for a daggerboard cats, others don't..

If all the boats were the same, CF would be very boring, wouldn't it ? ..

Yeloya
Of course, there are +ives and -ives to everything.

It's when the negatives are ridiculously exaggerated, and the positives are understated that some truth needs to be injected.

I mean seriously - mr Lerouge talks about not being able to access a shallow anchorage because his boat might draw 7'6 with the boards fully down. How hard is it to come up with a solution to that "problem"?
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Old 21-03-2016, 15:36   #68
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

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Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
44CC, I (and I suspect others) took Seaslug's comments about seeing you motoring twice as revealing more about himself than the subject of this thread: even if true, does anyone expect any boat not to motor occasionally in light air over 27,000 miles; and, even if true, what does it tell us about performance cruising cats, or boards versus keels? His unprovoked attack on you and your sail inventory (and his description of you as 'beloved') does, however, tell us something about himself: he obviously holds some simmering resentment towards you and your boat. Envy, perhaps?

I know I envy your boat and your ability to home-build such a beautiful vessel, but that is irrelevant. As you have pointed out, even those naval architects Seaslug cites as preferring keels on cruising cats acknowledge that the former outperform the latter. And performance is the subject of this thread.

Brad
Thanks, very kind words. I really don't mind Seaslug. He's amusing.
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Old 12-04-2016, 14:02   #69
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

Phisa 42? In fact that is upgraded Catana 401!
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Old 12-04-2016, 17:19   #70
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

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Originally Posted by Factor View Post
SNIP

Just remember that an extra few degrees of point and a reduction in leeway will have a significant affect over a reasonable distance. point 5 degrees higher over 100 miles, and you are 17 mile better off in VMG terms.
Must be the new math. I cant figure out how you came up with this.

Seems to me you are assuming things about boat speed that are not in evidence. Not to mention assumptions in leeway problems. Certainly does not seem like a simple trig problem with a definite answer like 17 mile advantage.

As my math prof use to say show your work.
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Old 13-04-2016, 00:41   #71
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

I have researched draggerboards quite a bit. Eric L. was one of main inputs.

Thats the bit I do not like about draggerboards :

in bad weather when one has to go off lee shore, in order to do that draggerboards should be pushed down.

However, this can cause them to break in waves, likely confused seas and then one has big problem.

Fixed keel cat will not have that problem in same situation though.

To migitate risk, one has to raise draggerboards sufficiently to avoid breakage risk. Then, in same boat as fixed keel version.

I guess only way to use draggerboards in your advantage in this situation is if steering proficiently at all times during manoeuvre.

Which means, you better be bloody good at driving cats in bad weather.

Not for beginner or intermediate.
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Old 13-04-2016, 01:01   #72
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

In my understanding, sailing off a lee shore in bad weather would indicate strong winds and as such you don't need the boards all the way down, if at all, so I don't think this is really an issue. In heavy winds you sail with them up, benefit from less drag and generate enough lift from your sail plan. I do believe that's exactly how 44c has described their usage and is consistent with what I've read.
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Old 13-04-2016, 01:20   #73
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

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In my understanding, sailing off a lee shore in bad weather would indicate strong winds and as such you don't need the boards all the way down, if at all, so I don't think this is really an issue. In heavy winds you sail with them up, benefit from less drag and generate enough lift from your sail plan. I do believe that's exactly how 44c has described their usage and is consistent with what I've read.
you could well be right. From reading of brochures of fast cats I understood this is main reason for draggerboards - lee shore escape.

However,
I have also read though that cat with draggerboards up draws only 78 cm in water. Yeah, if you exclude rudder

Someone believed salesman and paid the price with rudder breakage.
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Old 13-04-2016, 02:36   #74
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

I know of dagger board cats that draw less, including rudder. Even better to have kick up rudders

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Old 13-04-2016, 03:36   #75
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Re: 45' (or so) Performance Cruising Catamaran

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I know of dagger board cats that draw less, including rudder. Even better to have kick up rudders

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Worth checking out this podcast as there is a direct comparison daggerboard 1190 vs 1160 Mini Keels, the main driver is the less wetted surface area, looks like it will be a fast cat and the 1190 hits the water end of the month in Vietnam.

https://youtu.be/B-iTyxW5ApY
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