44 Helia "sunk" in the Atlantic

[Tornadosailing]

Originally Posted by AllenRbrts

What a great blog post! Replacing the Goiot hatch is not quite as bad, but it definitely ruined our Thanksgiving Day.

What I worry about is how that glass is held into the frame. To me it just looks like glue. I don't see anything passing through the glass holding it to the frame.

As a separate note, there is a post on the Chris White website about trying to break one of the glass pane escape hatches.

https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/25...verturned-boat

Here is a quote "Glen then went back to the escape hatch, took a fire extinguisher and hit the escape hatch but it did not break. Later he found the special hammer and beat on the glass with that and still could not break the tempered glass."

I'm not knocking the Lagoon solution, but I would check to be sure I knew how secure that glass is to the frame. Unfortunately with glass you can't use solvent glue to weld a block onto the lens on the inside for a solution like I did for the Goiot hatch.

I would bet that the glass is held to the frame by polyurethane window adhesive like a car windshield. If applied properly, it's impossible to remove without breaking the glass. You have to cut it off.

As far as breaking it with their cute little hammer, no thanks. I'll take an automatic center punch any day of the week.

https://youtu.be/FdeHk3CjgB0

[SteveSadler]

I’m curious how she foundered. I’ve hit whales twice this year from Panama to Tahiti and no one could sleep thru the noise and impact. One thing I noticed is that both hulls are flooded. One should be floating. Any ideas?

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by SteveSadler

I’m curious how she foundered. I’ve hit whales twice this year from Panama to Tahiti and no one could sleep thru the noise and impact. One thing I noticed is that both hulls are flooded. One should be floating. Any ideas?

One hull fully flooded and down by the stern in any sort of seas would probably pull the rear beam, cockpit and salon entry low enough for waves to flood in and into the other hull. Another possibility is that the hulls are connected by steering system and wire conduits that could have channeled water from one side to the other.

Hopefully there will be further information from the owner and/or the rescuers about what happened and the state of the boat when left.

[thruska]

Well I’m taking away one lesson from this thread.

And that’s the fact that silicone doesn’t belong on a boat’s construction! Particularly in the structure of a submerged escape hatch:

Observation....

Question: why would anyone replace a failed system with the same system ?

A manufacturer would send a “glue” kit ? What kind of glue .... ?

FWIW, these escape hatches seem to be problematic to the point of being more hazardous than helpful, the weak link.... in hull construction.
Yeah just what I want, a window in my boat’s submerged portion of hull...

Point made quite solidly of the mass produced “ quality” ....

And the lawyers reap the spoils Hahahaha
The rat race is over, the rats won

Note on unsinkable... think Titanic... watertight bulkheads ? Hahahaha
If water flows over the top it’s not watertight!!!:wh istling:

[Rohan]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Did you read the linked and translated story? If not, do so first then return to edit your comment.

Despite the headline, we don’t know whether the boat sank or not. The photo of the rescue showed it floating and likely stable in that position, bows high and underwater from the mast aft. It could probably be towed in that position.

I didn't say the boat sank. I was going off the original comment that described it as a "total loss". Not the same thing. If you abandon your boat, you could theoretically come back to get it, but even assuming you find it, you will be lucky if someone else hasn't already towed it away or stripped it for salvage.

If I understand correctly, either all or nearly all modern catamarans are lighter than water so they won't sink. I know that the EU rates some multihulls as "unsinkable". The Dragonfly is among those. Possibly FP too, I don't know.

So that leads to my question - if it's not going to sink, what's to stop someone from plugging the hole or closing the hatch, bailing out the water (would be tiring though), and going on their merry way? It makes more sense if the hatch itself broke off somehow, and the boat foundered on one side far enough that eventually water came over the bridgedeck and flooded both sides.

[AllenRbrts]

Originally Posted by thruska

Question: why would anyone replace a failed system with the same system ?

I really thought long and hard on this point. I had considered the idea of glassing over the escape hatches but the two yards I spoke with would not do it for liability reasons. I was also told that removing the escape hatches would greatly lower the resale value of the boat because it would no longer meet the EU requirements.

When searching for other manufacturers of hatches, I wasn't finding lots of choices. The Lagoon solution was interesting, but I was worried that the glass was also just glued in (but perhaps with much better glue) and I might have to make extensive hull modifications to make it work. So instead I focused on how to make the existing Goiot hatch bulletproof. I think the aluminum bars I added to the hatch accomplished that goal. The lens of the hatch is now bolted to the frame of the hatch. Even if all the silicone magically dissolved, it might drip water, but it would not come out of the frame and the hatch is still fully functional.

[LeeV]

Of course it's always easy to be an armchair quarterback after the fact, however I was struck most by the line that suggested he and two friends went through the boat and it seemed seaworthy.

Now, it could be my translation is amiss, but my first thought was "no surveyor before you set off, esp in fresh breezes?" That doesn't mean that a surveyor might have found something, but it just rings like faulty logic IF that was the case.

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by AllenRbrts

When searching for other manufacturers of hatches, I wasn't finding lots of choices. The Lagoon solution was interesting, but I was worried that the glass was also just glued in (but perhaps with much better glue) and I might have to make extensive hull modifications to make it work.

The glass on our Lagoon escape hatch is certainly glued in place but its not silicone. Feels more like MS polymer or PU glue. But it also looks like the frame has a recessed groove where the glass is, adding physical barrier to loose the glass.


As to breaking: You'd need a very sharp pointy end for this, not brute force. The fire extinguiser is the wrong tool, just as a basebal bat.

These windows are used in most every train and bus around th world so I guess they have figured this out.
Though I have to admit I have never tried it and would love someone to try it

[AllenRbrts]

Originally Posted by rabbi

The glass on our Lagoon escape hatch is certainly glued in place but its not silicone. Feels more like MS polymer or PU glue. But it also looks like the frame has a recessed groove where the glass is, adding physical barrier to loose the glass.

That sounds like a good solution. Much better than the Goiot hatch.

I hope everybody with the Goiot hatch realizes they are just a small stripe of silicone away from a huge hole in their boat. The fix is quick and easy before the silicone fails, but if you ignore it there may be no fix possible and your boat could look just like this boat. It is not just a Fountaine Pajot issue, many different cats use this same hatch.

I have put in a Safety Defect submission to the USCG about this problem. Hopefully it will get some attention.

[mikedefieslife]

There is a Nautitech Open 40 next to me, I've noticed that the escape hatches are a good 40-50cm above its waterline. Sure in decent seas if one failed you'd get a massive amount of water in, but by the looks of it shouldn't flood the boat enough for it to barely be floating.

Are the hatches much lower in the FP Helia?

[AllenRbrts]

Originally Posted by mikedefieslife

There is a Nautitech Open 40 next to me, I've noticed that the escape hatches are a good 40-50cm above its waterline. Sure in decent seas if one failed you'd get a massive amount of water in, but by the looks of it shouldn't flood the boat enough for it to barely be floating.

Are the hatches much lower in the FP Helia?

Helia hatches are just above the water level. Having the hatch higher is certainly going to have less the stress from water. The hatch lens is inset in the frame, so external pressure pushes it against into the frame. The Helia has the hatch recessed and I have wondered if the recess with water rushing by creates some small amount of negative pressure on the lens at times, resulting in force pulling the lens from the frame.

Of course the higher the hatch above the waterline, means a lower hatch if the boat was inverted. I'm sure that is why the Helia hatch is so low.

[admiralslater]

My understanding is that the location of escape hatches is determined by the inverted wareline . Ie above the water when upside down

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by Nicholson58

I have seen many cats with hulls so thin for weight that they were easil sprung by hand force or casual contact with the dock. I think I’ll stick with my 1-1/2 inch thick solid glass and Kevlar 40 ton Nicholson.

Glad the outcome is without crew loss.

A few years ago I saw just what you’re describing on a huge cat....50-60’ after it was hauled. The lifting straps actually ripped through the almost paper thin fiberglass. I call attention to this to a friend who explained the boat was cored with an inner and outer fiberglass layer......THAT GAVE IT STRENGTH!

YEAh, some strength!

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by foggysail

A few years ago I saw just what you’re describing on a huge cat....50-60’ after it was hauled. The lifting straps actually ripped through the almost paper thin fiberglass. I call attention to this to a friend who explained the boat was cored with an inner and outer fiberglass layer......THAT GAVE IT STRENGTH!

YEAh, some strength!

Gave strenght while reducing weight. Jets are cored as are portions of f1 cars . Many mono hulls are cored ,do you think that the vendee globe boats or the volvo yachts sport an inch and a half of chopper gun fibre glass .
Also you might find under multi-directional loads that the big wad of glass under you may not be as strong as you think .
Some people want to drive a pickup truck others a ferrari .

[foggysail]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

Gave strenght while reducing weight. Jets are cored as are portions of f1 cars . Many mono hulls are cored ,do you think that the vendee globe boats or the volvo yachts sport an inch and a half of chopper gun fibre glass .
Also you might find under multi-directional loads that the big wad of glass under you may not be as strong as you think .
Some people want to drive a pickup truck others a ferrari .

Ferrari? I’ll stick with a truck. Just maybe better engineering would have sacrificed weight gain to ensure greater durability to the hull. What I saw represented puny construction that ripped apart under its own weight shared by the crane’s lifting straps. A structurally cored hull with paper thin fiberglass on the sides of the core construction risks puncture if it hits floating junk regardless of its strength to avoid bending.

If anybody doubts what I described happened, call Fairhaven Shipyards in Fairhaven MA who had to make the repairs caused by their lifting straps when the boat was hauled for other repairs. This event happened about 6-7 years ago.