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Old 24-03-2007, 01:58   #76
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It' sad when any boat is lost ,I'm a mono man but still love cats the space and the speed and I remember while living in Aussie [Nelson Bay] the morning after a bad storm a 40ft cat arrived in , It had dagger boards and the one thing the skipper said that stuck in my mind was If I had a fixed mini keel and not dagger boards I would not be here today,
Think back, early last year another cat went over with mini keels in Phuket while in a regatta.
I begin to wonder are mini Keels safe off shore????? OR should they be only use for coastal cruising and banned from off shore

Graham
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Old 24-03-2007, 16:14   #77
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ummm, the exact opposite would be true. daggerboards provide more resistance to slipping sideways (hence the ability to point a little better). but on beam on seas, with the leeward board down instead of the windward board, you would increase your chances of flipping. People get dagger boards for performance, not for safety.
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Old 24-03-2007, 17:13   #78
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Schoonerdog,
The safety factor of daggerboards is in the fact that you can completely remove the lateral resistance, therefore be able to slide sideways. With fixed keels, you are stuck with that LR whether you like it or not.
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Old 25-03-2007, 07:38   #79
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Fhrussell,
I agree with you, That was the point I was referring to The skipper I was referring to that came into Nelson Bay in Aust said he was in 6-8 meter swells and when it gets rough up comes the dagger boards, no Resistance and I dose not matter if you broach you just slide to bottom of the swell at least to wont tip over, "Its a safty factor that I like."
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Old 25-03-2007, 20:18   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog
ummm, the exact opposite would be true. daggerboards provide more resistance to slipping sideways (hence the ability to point a little better). but on beam on seas, with the leeward board down instead of the windward board, you would increase your chances of flipping. People get dagger boards for performance, not for safety.
Schoonerdog, you have slightly contradicted yourself here. The daggerboards are lowered to improve WINDWARD performance - if you are in strong winds and big seas, you are unlikely to be going to windward. In fact the polar diagram Bob Oram supplies with th plans suggests that you would only have the dagger down 100% when close hauled
in less than 12 knots of wind.
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Old 26-03-2007, 09:56   #81
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I didn't understand the context. Yep, being able to pull daggerboards up would help when running before very heavy seas. But most of us on this board have catamarans with minikeels, and have been in seas like this without problems. So I guess it's a trade off between the ability to go aground on a mini keeled boat and having that keel protect you vs having a no keel boat and the ability to pull boards up in an open ocean when running in storm conditions. I've run aground accidentially a lot and been able to move off without an issue and without a keel I would have still gone aground, I would have just moved further towards the shore before hitting. I personally like having a foot of fiberglass protecting me from impact and wouldn't want to give that up. But I definitely see the benefit of boards.
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Old 27-03-2007, 04:49   #82
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Schoonerdog,

At last we are on the same wave lenght, Mini keels are great, And I know people that have sailed around the world with mini keels but they have admitted that they have been very carfull on picking there weather, I have a very good Friend who has just changed cats he has just bought a Aussie built schionning cat with dagger boards and admits he feels a lot safer going off shore with his family, He is now planing a world trip and said he would not go in his old Perry cat
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Old 28-03-2007, 00:33   #83
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I had assumed this was said tough-in-cheek. If not - many hundereds of Prouts have circumnavigated over more than 30 years with zero incidents of this type. Probably a similar number of FP, Lagoon, Leopard etc etc by now too. This is of course irrelevant beacuse some skipper says he feels safer with his lifting keels.......

Most literature for cats in REALLY bad conditions says bow- or stern-to the waves (using drogue or sea-anchor). An argument could be made that having no grip on the water would increase a tendency to slew sideways, and hence present beam-on to seas, whereas mini-keels would not get you into that position in the first place.

Personally I think they are neither better nor worse, just different - but avoid hearsay.
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Old 28-03-2007, 02:31   #84
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I have to say I am careful picking the weather any time I go out. That wouldn't change whether I had mini-keels, daggerboards or both.
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Old 28-03-2007, 05:28   #85
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I agree with Moby, 90% of cats are minikeels because of design choice. Boats like the PDQ 44 are designed solely for owners and at $700k could be whatever they wished. If there was a clear overall safety advantage for daggerboards, they would have them. Companies like PDQ and designers like Simon Slater simply feel that the protection of the minikeels far outweigh the concerns of performance and perhaps some slight advantage regarding being able to "slip" sideways. Again, I also feel that arguments can be made both ways very effectively and there both are fine boats for world wide cruising, but I would never consider a boat with daggerboards more of an ocean cruiser than one with minikeels.
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Old 28-03-2007, 12:21   #86
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What about inwardly canted mini keels? Picture a cat with keels that are positioned on the inside edge of both hulls and are angled 30 degrees or so off vertical towards the middle of the boat. Lets say a very large wave comes from starboard, pushing the cat to port, the port keel will act to lift the port hull, the starboard keel will act to depress the starboard hull, actively preventing a flip. In windward sailing you'd also have the advantage of the windward hull digging in a little bit and the leeward hull lifting a little bit, which would act to level the ship against the wind.

The only disadvantages that I can see are; A) It would be difficult to make such a system structurally sound out of fibreglass. B) The keels would have to be slightly deeper and have considerably more surface area for the same amount of leeway fighting ability (don't know the correct term).

Am I wrong or would this make for a better open ocean cat?
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Old 28-03-2007, 13:31   #87
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It's not about keels or daggerboards. It's also not about being a Norseman or Voyager, a catamaran or monohull. This is about a captain, who disregarded warning, to make a scheduled delivery. He could have been on any boat, any design and had the same result. Trying to draw conclusions of boat design and safety from the tragedy of a captains stupidity is wrong. I use the word stupidity as that is really what this comes down to. I have little regard for darwin candidates.
Trying to survive after the calamity. From the posts here it's apparent that most people here have never deployed their life rafts or taken a course and don't realize that the cat, though floating, is filled with water. Not even sure if there was a life raft aboard. Doesn't add or subtract from the stupidity of the captain.
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Old 28-03-2007, 13:50   #88
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On the maiden voyage of our 58' Tayana we hired a capable and experience lifelong delivery captain. We decided to leave in the spring and cross in the North Atlantic. By the end of day two we we're beating into a force 9 gale and an 80 year old crew member who was becoming dehydrated and none of us were eating except for the captain. We got a report from Herb that the low pressure system we were in was going to collide with another to potentially form a very large storm.

The captain was more than happy to continue on the rhumb line to the Azores. Because of the 80 year (my Dad), I decided to divert to Bermuda where we dropped him off. Had it not been for the crew, the captain would have surely sailed the shortest distance and I've no doubt would have make the crossing just fine.

Professional captains have a completely different criteria for what's safe and I bet they have a much higher mortality rate than other sailors who spend a lot of time on the water.

Sometimes bad stuff happen. That doesn't mean anyone's at fault.
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Old 29-03-2007, 02:18   #89
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It's called "Assumtion of Risk". If one it not willing to take risks then life will always be just normal..................._/)
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Old 29-03-2007, 02:59   #90
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No...it's called stupidity. A risk is every time you leave the pier. Reducing risk is preparing the boat properly, checking the weather, and learning what to do when something bad happens. Stupidity is leaving the pier when you know something bad will happen.

If one does stupid things then life is short.
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