40ft Catamaran Owners Please

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Kita

.....Now, Leopards, wow I really like the way you can walk across the back of the boat cause that is where alot of the action for me will take place (fishing & other things)

The open-to-aft cockpit design does have it's downside. In my raised deck surrounding the cockpit:

- No worries about cooler, portable ice maker, sandals, towels, cushions, etc. sliding off the boat during rough seas.
- Crew feels very safe during rough passages.
- Lots of storage!
- In the lockers surrounding my raised aft deck I have: main fuel tank, 10 jerry cans for extra fuel, house batteries, (2) large bins for boat stores, a 7.6kw generator, (2) scuba tanks, grill & propane tank, AC electrical distribution, plus other stuff I haven't seen for years!
- The raised aft deck also gives better protection if you have to work on an engine while underway.

Sitting on the top aft step fishing/trolling has never been a problem.

[Kita]

Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor

Couldn't agree more on Contrail's comments on balsa coring... Never had an issue with a balsa cored hull when managing a fleet of Leopard's... Balsa core is also MUCH easier to repair in the event of any underwater damage...

Please explain how a balsa core is easier to fix,I understand they are widely used & have many miles on them but how are they easier to repair? If so I would look at the leopard alot closer, but.. Tell me something I don`t know.. That can`t be to hard & I love to learn,thats why we are here! Thanks!!

[Fresh Salt]

I have somewhat revised my initial list to include things I initially overlooked. Of the multitude of considerations, these are the ones of paramount importance to me at this stage.

1. True Solo Sail Ability
2. Heavy Weather Safety / Survivability / Comfort
3. Carrying Capacity
3. General Build Quality / Durability
4. Ease of Maintenance
5. Performance Both Under Sail and while Motoring
6. Natural Ventilation / general livability

Any further make/model specific feedback on the above list would be most welcome.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by Fresh Salt

I have somewhat revised my initial list to include things I initially overlooked. Of the multitude of considerations, these are the ones of paramount importance to me at this stage.

1. True Solo Sail Ability
2. Heavy Weather Safety / Survivability / Comfort
3. Carrying Capacity
3. General Build Quality / Durability
4. Ease of Maintenance
5. Performance Both Under Sail and while Motoring
6. Natural Ventilation / general livability

Any further make/model specific feedback on the above list would be most welcome.

Have a look at the Broadblue range of cats. Not being designed for the charter market, I think they will meet a lot of your criteria.

[Catastroff]

I read this thread, and i have to say that i am feeling you better stay home with your internet than try to go at sea. (meant offshore). How much spare time do you have to post video, and bla bla bla. I am sure you wont never buy a boat. I have been sailing for 40 years now, including ocean passage, and i met and knew many sailors on that road. They all make their own experience bying their first boat....the first boat is never ideal, you will have to sail many miles to really know what a boat is like, and mot important, knows what is good for you and what is not...it takes time. If you really want to buy a boat, and got the money to do it, just visit how many boats you can, and you will see that one day your heart will stop beating, and you fall in love with one boat, and you will buy it...balsa core or not, old or new...your mind will get stuck with her, like a woman, you will be in love with and accept all of her pros and cons !

Hope it helps you stop your brainstorming

catastroff

[monte]

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by Catastroff

I read this thread, and i have to say that i am feeling you better stay home with your internet than try to go at sea. (meant offshore). How much spare time do you have to post video, and bla bla bla. I am sure you wont never buy a boat. I have been sailing for 40 years now, including ocean passage, and i met and knew many sailors on that road. They all make their own experience bying their first boat....the first boat is never ideal, you will have to sail many miles to really know what a boat is like, and mot important, knows what is good for you and what is not...it takes time. If you really want to buy a boat, and got the money to do it, just visit how many boats you can, and you will see that one day your heart will stop beating, and you fall in love with one boat, and you will buy it...balsa core or not, old or new...your mind will get stuck with her, like a woman, you will be in love with and accept all of her pros and cons !

Hope it helps you stop your brainstorming

catastroff

Absolutely agree! Armchair sailing has a completely different set of priorities from real world sailing!

[Fresh Salt]

Originally Posted by Catastroff

I read this thread, and i have to say that i am feeling you better stay home with your internet than try to go at sea. (meant offshore). How much spare time do you have to post video, and bla bla bla. I am sure you wont never buy a boat. I have been sailing for 40 years now, including ocean passage, and i met and knew many sailors on that road. They all make their own experience bying their first boat....the first boat is never ideal, you will have to sail many miles to really know what a boat is like, and mot important, knows what is good for you and what is not...it takes time. If you really want to buy a boat, and got the money to do it, just visit how many boats you can, and you will see that one day your heart will stop beating, and you fall in love with one boat, and you will buy it...balsa core or not, old or new...your mind will get stuck with her, like a woman, you will be in love with and accept all of her pros and cons !

Hope it helps you stop your brainstorming

catastroff

Thank you for your colorful response, posting video is actually not all that complicated or time consuming once you get the hang of it.

Fact being that I do not have 40 years of experience and knowledge behind me and am here simply to try and educate myself as much as possible.

I am in a position to retire and purchase a boat precisely because I don’t rush into any investment or expenditure without first thoroughly doing my homework.

I would much rather “fall in love” with my 1st purchase than have a couple bad, costly relationships in between.

Originally Posted by Sos

Have a look at the Broadblue range of cats. Not being designed for the charter market, I think they will meet a lot of your criteria.

Thanks Sos, I’ve not yet come across the Broadblue’s, their site seems under maint or something as I can’t get any model specific specs. I’ll definitely be looking into them further.

[Richard5]

Originally Posted by Catastroff

I read this thread, and i have to say that i am feeling you better stay home with your internet than try to go at sea. (meant offshore). How much spare time do you have to post video, and bla bla bla. I am sure you wont never buy a boat. I have been sailing for 40 years now, including ocean passage, and i met and knew many sailors on that road. They all make their own experience bying their first boat....the first boat is never ideal, you will have to sail many miles to really know what a boat is like, and mot important, knows what is good for you and what is not...it takes time. If you really want to buy a boat, and got the money to do it, just visit how many boats you can, and you will see that one day your heart will stop beating, and you fall in love with one boat, and you will buy it...balsa core or not, old or new...your mind will get stuck with her, like a woman, you will be in love with and accept all of her pros and cons !

Hope it helps you stop your brainstorming

catastroff

You ol bulbous blue nosed crustacean perhaps its time you crawled out of the 19th century. You say you have 40 yrs but I've been sailing since a wee lad and now pushing 55 yrs yrs on this earth. I have 30,000 blue water miles under my belt and countless coastal miles but maybe you can do better than that. But none of that, it don't matter. This guy FreshSalt is dancing around the age old questions like a prissy boy wanting to know if his money is well spent on this or that boat. And he looks to the likes of you to help guide him in his direction. The facts of the matter is most folks don't have the wherewithal whether financial or in age to go chasing after any old dream of joining the jetsam of yonder blue. The demographic of cruisers has become white shirted tight collered folks with more money than know how who simply want to escape from the coming apocalypse. They need the likes of you to show them the way.

Now I cannot give account agin you for being derisive of this new breed but I beg you to give due to your fellow man for they too wish to take to the sea if even for a different reason than ye of olde. To lend a hand to your fellow shipmate, even while you not account him for much, is the code. Be a good chap and lend a hand. That you even found the innerwebz is a sign of your attributes and is to be counted to your favor.

Having said all that I must whole heartedly agree that balsa this core that, there is much to be said for the apparent anxiety of 'newcomers' stressing over every. little. thing. "Cast off", is the mantra, or in the words of that commercial tyrant Nike, Just Do It. But these folks seem to require a bit of hand holding mostly due to the fact that they stake their entire life savings on such a venture. Are they the poorer for it? That is a question for themselves to answer. Better to be founded upon an uncharted reef than to squirrel away their existence in some cubicle. So be it, that is the face of the current day cruiser. Be a good chap and shed your knowledge upon them. At least one of them will sup you with a stiff rum if that be yer taken.


As for me, I am profoundly interested in this thread. Most notably is that even though I have spent a life on the sea in everything 'tween scows, planing skiffs, brigitines, square sailors, deep keels and fast trimarans and catamans, I have not any experience of cruising catamarans. And it is precisely the condo cat which at this station in my life I seek. See, I have a fair lass who cannot withstand the heel of a monohull due to a brain injury and my keen desire for Sea Mercy will brings me to the consideration of a wide beamed platform which only the cat can provide. So while it is to be a new found experience for me, despite my many sea miles, I shall also delight in providing for my crew and passengers. Now go in good haste and kindly provide in good stead all your knowledge without mockery of those lessor than yourself.

See, we all should continue to learn. I thrill at the thought of providing something of value to others. And as the saying goes, Don't ever scare your passengers.

[contrail]

Couple of thoughts on maintenance.....that F/P 60 that came through the pounding so well, also had a very complex fuel tank system, three tanks paralleled, made of aluminum (so not, by any means, "forever") in a place where they cannot be cleaned and will only be able to be removed by either cutting out the cockpit sole or the bottom side of the bridge deck.

The reality is that you want a boat that can be maintained. Either you will keep it a long time, or you will eventually want to sell it to someone else that will. Think house, not car, and think of your investment. If you can't maintain it easily, or better yet by yourself, you will be either paying a fortune, or eventually sailing a boat that is not in good structural, mechanical and cosmetic condition. People on this board who work, or have worked in boatyards, charter fleets and other segments of this industry will be able to tell you lots about bolts that can't be got at, things that can't be removed, equipment that can't get even routine maintenance (I remember a well thought of power yacht where the oil filter on the genset couldn't be changed!). There is a very well known and well thought of make of catamaran, where to change the head hoses (which, somewhere long down the line you will want to do), you have to remove all the cabinetry, which is bonded and not screwed in place. Look at ALL the gear and think how you will get at it or move it, tanks, tracks, pumps, rigging, you name it. The list is endless.

With regard to Balsa cores, a modern vacuum bagged hull spreads the resin around so that there are no air voids. The balsa that is used is end grained, in other words, the grain does not wick the water around. When cores had lots of airspaces, because that is the way they were laminated, then water could get around. Balsa is much more resistant to compression, and if it doesn't get wet, and it shouldn't, then it doesn't crumble or rot. PVC cores can crumble, and can't take as much of a compression blow. The highest tech core, which would be some sort of honeycomb, won't rot or anything and is very light.....but it has very small surfaces to bond to the exterior laminate. Absolutely non of the cores are perfect, but study what negatives are acceptable to you. Back to balsa...most balsa cored boats have areas of solid glass where most (ideally all) of the holes are drilled. If you need to drill a hole, it is relatively easy to drill a larger one and seal it with epoxy, through which you drill the hole you want. If any cored boat gets holed and damaged, the core in that area has to be replaced, if it is a cored area. My own damage was to a large, very strong, uncored area at the bow, so no issue. You are correct to be pessimistic about the likely-hood of ever hitting anything...happens to the best...but think how often it happens to bareboats? And yet, it is a fairly straightforward repair, with hulls as they are built now. No matter what can be fairly said in criticism of charter companies, they do have to live with the decisions they make regarding design and construction, so there is something to be learned from them.

I remember decades ago, when US cars had not lost market share to foreign vehicles, riding around New York in one of many Cadillac taxis. My father asked the driver how come the taxi was a Cadillac and not something more run of the mill. The driver smiled and said it was the most durable, and easiest and least expensive car to maintain! The days are probably long gone, but you get the point. When I use a yard, I usually use whatever is the best (and often most expensive) yard around, and I usually end up paying much less than I would have, otherwise. Strange but true.

The true disasters come where problems are left to fester....holes not sealed, repairs left "until convenient at the next haul-out", for example, and this type of disaster can happen to any core, any boat, and any piece of equipments.

Cheers,
Tim

[ArtM]

I do agree that you're getting too deep into the analytics. You will never find the ideal boat unless you take money out of the equation entirely. Unless you're Bill Gates, you will make a compromise.

Any boat you buy will take you to sea. Until you spend time at sea, in a real boat, living day to day in real life scenarios, you will never truly know what you want and need.

As Catastroff said, you'll love your boat and respect her strengths and weaknesses no matter what you get.

Only one thing - I would NOT try to liveaboard a boat below 28' (monohull). That is a recipe for failure.

[Therapy]

FreshSalt,

So far you are looking at the higher volume production boats.

There are some lower volume ones.

Here is one that is built (well) by someone who did not find what he wanted and decided to make "the right cat". It seems to cover a lot of ground - ie. your list.
Maverick Yachts

StFrancis makes a really nice 50 footer though there are a few things standard that you would want to go one size larger on. Recently there have been some problems, I read.
Single handing a 50 footer is something I don't want to try but apparently it can be done fairly easily.

Then there are several Australian designers and some good yards to have them built in. Some are really nice - checking your boxes.

Your boxes are like mine but you will come to find that there are just so many trade offs it is mind boggling. Especially for a newbi. I consider myself one.

Too bad for me I don't have your budget or I would have had to make a decision.

Remember that yes, it is important to have a robust boat for the bad weather, easy to handle etc etc but you will spend 90% of your time on the hook or tied up.

Opinion from one with low experience on cats but high on research.

[Therapy]

Another thought.

Since your budget is so large (compared to my situation) you could easily purchase one you think you like on the used market, try it out for a while and see what it is like.

[Sos]

Originally Posted by Fresh Salt

Thanks Sos, I’ve not yet come across the Broadblue’s, their site seems under maint or something as I can’t get any model specific specs. I’ll definitely be looking into them further.

Try this link Download Brochures, Specifications and Pricing | BROADBLUE | The World's Finest Catamarans

[Fresh Salt]

Originally Posted by contrail

Couple of thoughts on maintenance.....that F/P 60 that came through the pounding so well, also had a very complex fuel tank system, three tanks paralleled, made of aluminum (so not, by any means, "forever") in a place where they cannot be cleaned and will only be able to be removed by either cutting out the cockpit sole or the bottom side of the bridge deck.

The reality is that you want a boat that can be maintained. Either you will keep it a long time, or you will eventually want to sell it to someone else that will. Think house, not car, and think of your investment. If you can't maintain it easily, or better yet by yourself, you will be either paying a fortune, or eventually sailing a boat that is not in good structural, mechanical and cosmetic condition. People on this board who work, or have worked in boatyards, charter fleets and other segments of this industry will be able to tell you lots about bolts that can't be got at, things that can't be removed, equipment that can't get even routine maintenance (I remember a well thought of power yacht where the oil filter on the genset couldn't be changed!). There is a very well known and well thought of make of catamaran, where to change the head hoses (which, somewhere long down the line you will want to do), you have to remove all the cabinetry, which is bonded and not screwed in place. Look at ALL the gear and think how you will get at it or move it, tanks, tracks, pumps, rigging, you name it. The list is endless.

With regard to Balsa cores, a modern vacuum bagged hull spreads the resin around so that there are no air voids. The balsa that is used is end grained, in other words, the grain does not wick the water around. When cores had lots of airspaces, because that is the way they were laminated, then water could get around. Balsa is much more resistant to compression, and if it doesn't get wet, and it shouldn't, then it doesn't crumble or rot. PVC cores can crumble, and can't take as much of a compression blow. The highest tech core, which would be some sort of honeycomb, won't rot or anything and is very light.....but it has very small surfaces to bond to the exterior laminate. Absolutely non of the cores are perfect, but study what negatives are acceptable to you. Back to balsa...most balsa cored boats have areas of solid glass where most (ideally all) of the holes are drilled. If you need to drill a hole, it is relatively easy to drill a larger one and seal it with epoxy, through which you drill the hole you want. If any cored boat gets holed and damaged, the core in that area has to be replaced, if it is a cored area. My own damage was to a large, very strong, uncored area at the bow, so no issue. You are correct to be pessimistic about the likely-hood of ever hitting anything...happens to the best...but think how often it happens to bareboats? And yet, it is a fairly straightforward repair, with hulls as they are built now. No matter what can be fairly said in criticism of charter companies, they do have to live with the decisions they make regarding design and construction, so there is something to be learned from them.

I remember decades ago, when US cars had not lost market share to foreign vehicles, riding around New York in one of many Cadillac taxis. My father asked the driver how come the taxi was a Cadillac and not something more run of the mill. The driver smiled and said it was the most durable, and easiest and least expensive car to maintain! The days are probably long gone, but you get the point. When I use a yard, I usually use whatever is the best (and often most expensive) yard around, and I usually end up paying much less than I would have, otherwise. Strange but true.

The true disasters come where problems are left to fester....holes not sealed, repairs left "until convenient at the next haul-out", for example, and this type of disaster can happen to any core, any boat, and any piece of equipments.

Cheers,
Tim

Thanks Tim, more invaluable information that is certainly left out of any manufacturer's brochure, or sales pitch. And yet further reinforcement that the sheer variety of issues and considerations involved in evaluating a boat defies a simple straight forward answer.

Originally Posted by ArtM

I do agree that you're getting too deep into the analytics. You will never find the ideal boat unless you take money out of the equation entirely. Unless you're Bill Gates, you will make a compromise.

Any boat you buy will take you to sea. Until you spend time at sea, in a real boat, living day to day in real life scenarios, you will never truly know what you want and need.

As Catastroff said, you'll love your boat and respect her strengths and weaknesses no matter what you get.

Only one thing - I would NOT try to liveaboard a boat below 28' (monohull). That is a recipe for failure.

I well understand the frustration endured by the knowledgeable, when confronted by the prattling on of a newbie over seemingly irrelevant issues. Separating those from valid issues is part of the exercise as far as I’m concerned and ulitimately a positive development.

Originally Posted by Therapy

FreshSalt,

So far you are looking at the higher volume production boats.

There are some lower volume ones.

Here is one that is built (well) by someone who did not find what he wanted and decided to make "the right cat". It seems to cover a lot of ground - ie. your list.
Maverick Yachts

StFrancis makes a really nice 50 footer though there are a few things standard that you would want to go one size larger on. Recently there have been some problems, I read.
Single handing a 50 footer is something I don't want to try but apparently it can be done fairly easily.

Then there are several Australian designers and some good yards to have them built in. Some are really nice - checking your boxes.

Your boxes are like mine but you will come to find that there are just so many trade offs it is mind boggling. Especially for a newbi. I consider myself one.

Too bad for me I don't have your budget or I would have had to make a decision.

Remember that yes, it is important to have a robust boat for the bad weather, easy to handle etc etc but you will spend 90% of your time on the hook or tied up.

Opinion from one with low experience on cats but high on research.

I’ll be in Cape Town in August, the Maverick 400 is on the list of boats to check out.

“designed for short-handed, long range cruising and is built for comfort, safety and reliability.” Sounds like my cup of tea although it is at the high end of what I’m looking to initially spend.

To my mind a robust boat that can take a hammering in tough conditions, translates into a well constructed one, I plan to avoid heavy weather as far as humanly possible.

I have however spent a good couple 1000hrs at sea in my time as a dive instructor, and have seen conditions get real bad real fast with no place to run, not something I would like to experience on a less than sound vessel.

Originally Posted by Sos

Try this link Download Brochures, Specifications and Pricing | BROADBLUE | The World's Finest Catamarans

Cheers, not sure how I missed that, the other links on the site are functioning again now. The Rapier 400 also looks interesting, a trip to Europe may yet be on the cards.