Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 21-11-2011, 17:54   #121
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dover, UK
Boat: Ex liveaboard, now grounded.
Posts: 64
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Hi, Ian McD. Of course, I respect your choice of mono over multi. I suspect that your 40 mono is going to come through almost every ocean condition she meets just as a 40' cat will. However, the bottom line is the cat cannot sink. Holed, broken, whatever, it's not going to sink (unless it's an old solid GRP construction, which might go down). It will retain food stores, medical stores, safety equipment etc. Your mono can sink.

If your mono gets rolled, will it keep its mast? If it loses the mast, it loses a large piece of its resistance to being rolled. It becomes more likely that it will get rolled again. Research on roll moment of inertia following the infamous Fastnet race of 1979 made this clear. Also interesting that fatalities in that race only occurred in boats under 30'.

The cat is going to look after its crew much better in extreme conditions than the mono. You're not going to get thrown around as much, less at risk of injury and more capable of dealing with emergency situations as a result.

If you sail your mono to windward in a force 5, what angle of heel do you have? Angles of heel have a significant impact on crew efficiency and well being. The cat heels far less, the crew are going to be more capable, more efficient, therefore less prone to creating mistakes. Operator malfunction is one of the greatest dangers at sea. ( Personally tested that fact.)

So, no, I am not kidding myself. I've looked at the physics, the hydrodynamics, the anecdotes, the statistics (yes, with caution) and the reports of respected observers and participants. For all those hours of sailing in the comfort zone, the non-threatening sea conditions, give me a multihull every time, I'm going to be sailing faster, more comfortably and more safely than your mono. In the ultimate storm, give me a multihull every time, because I know at the very worst it will be flipped once and it WON'T SINK.
__________________

__________________
steve ripples is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 01:48   #122
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Adelaide
Boat: Creala 40 ( Crealock )
Posts: 31
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Probably just very lucky.
__________________

__________________
Ian McD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 02:57   #123
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dover, UK
Boat: Ex liveaboard, now grounded.
Posts: 64
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

The more you learn, the luckier you get.
__________________
steve ripples is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 04:26   #124
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,080
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian McD View Post
...I certainly would not knock back a forty foot cat if offerred one but I would prefer a forty foot Oyster to round the horn. I would RESPECTFULLY say that to think otherwise is to be kidding yourself.
When are you planning on doubling the horn?
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 06:23   #125
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 774
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by owengg View Post
What size catamaran is needed for a circumnavigation? I've read of the dangers of pitch polling in catamarans. From what I've read a circumnavigation shouldn't even be attempted in a boat under 40 ft.
Our ancestors traveled the seas on rafts (multi-hull) and logs (mono-hull) covering impossible distances on both (most of them well under 40 foot). Although apparently arguable, there's probable no real difference as a circumnavigator between a multi or mono hull. Benefits of the original designs are obvious with raft design capable of carrying large loads safely and our forefathers comfortably. The need for speed, whether in battle or trade put the mono-hull on top. Of course today with lighter building materials the speed challenge passes back and forth, but the basic premise is the remains. Multihulls proffer a stable platform, but an extremely low capsize ratio as they rarely recover from a knock down. Mono have higher recovery rates but even heavy cruisers lack the comfort ratio of multihulls. Pitch poling is a matter of sail balance or being over sailed a fault of multi's wanting to go faster and the lack of friction with the water.

Quote:
Why are monohulls under 40 feet considered safer? The physics don't make much sense to me.
The ocean floor is littered with hulls of all sizes. It's not about length, it's about the design and who's driving. It's that simple.
Check out the list of notables:
Famous Small Boats
__________________

Seahunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 06:27   #126
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 40
This has ben a fun discussion to follow.

I think some of the catamaran sailors underestimate just how relatively comfortable and stable a heavy-displacement cruiser is when heeled over in rough seas. They are designed for this.

For me, heavy and well built is the key. An unsinkable catamaran upside down in pieces ( with those huge windows smashed, etc) is not how I'd ride out a storm.

Cats have to be lightly constructed, or they don't perform. Most cats, just like most monos, are built for light and easy cruising in good weather in the tropics. Big windows- large hatches (sliding glass doors!)- all of these Are awesome features for a sunny day I tropical paradise, but dangerous at sea.

, I think a solid heavy cruising mono is less likely to get bashed to smithereens than many of the cats out there. Or many of the bleach bottle monohulls, for that matter.

The key for a mono is the boat needs to be tight, with small strong windows and is able to be sealed up. In this state, a well built mono is pretty much unsinkable.

I'm not trying to change any minds, just trying to trigger some thought, and address the op question about why monos under 40 feet are considered by experts to be safer than cats.
__________________
Victory49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 09:21   #127
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,653
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory49 View Post
This has ben a fun discussion to follow.

I think some of the catamaran sailors underestimate just how relatively comfortable and stable a heavy-displacement cruiser is when heeled over in rough seas. They are designed for this.

For me, heavy and well built is the key. An unsinkable catamaran upside down in pieces ( with those huge windows smashed, etc) is not how I'd ride out a storm.

Cats have to be lightly constructed, or they don't perform. Most cats, just like most monos, are built for light and easy cruising in good weather in the tropics. Big windows- large hatches (sliding glass doors!)- all of these Are awesome features for a sunny day I tropical paradise, but dangerous at sea

, I think a solid heavy cruising mono is less likely to get bashed to smithereens than many of the cats out there. Or many of the bleach bottle monohulls, for that matter.

The key for a mono is the boat needs to be tight, with small strong windows and is able to be sealed up. In this state, a well built mono is pretty much unsinkable.



I'm not trying to change any minds, just trying to trigger some thought, and address the op question about why monos under 40 feet are considered by experts to be safer than cats.
I guess that would depend on what expert you are talking to as there are plenty of experts that think the exact opposite.
__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 12:58   #128
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Adelaide
Boat: Creala 40 ( Crealock )
Posts: 31
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Been there, done that. How about you?
__________________
Ian McD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 13:14   #129
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,080
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Not done it - not planning it, It is just so many of these discussions referencing - round the horn- and few if any on this forum will ever do it or get close,

I have done high latitude and trans ocean sailing, but not the horn.
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 13:20   #130
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Victory49 View Post

The key for a mono is the boat needs to be tight, with small strong windows and is able to be sealed up. In this state, a well built mono is pretty much unsinkable.

I'm not trying to change any minds, just trying to trigger some thought, and address the op question about why monos under 40 feet are considered by experts to be safer than cats.
With watertight bulkheads or positive flotation you may have a point.
What current monohulls have these features??

With small strong windows - more like a cave than a home. if you want to sail around the world in the roaring fourties would be sensible.
__________________
downunder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 13:51   #131
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,452
Images: 69
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

WHy does this thread keep going? The OP's question has been answered many times. Hundreds of sub 40' catamarans have circumnavigated.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 18:15   #132
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Adelaide
Boat: Creala 40 ( Crealock )
Posts: 31
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Sorry I was not refering to sailing around the horn. The worst weather I have ever experienced in 50 years of messing around in boats was about 30 miles South of Tasmania when the wind instruments expired in a shower of plastic bits and a few months ago 100 miles off the Oregon coast. Both were really quite bad but in neither case would I think a 40 foot cat would be a problem but thats not what the discussion is about. We are talking about the ultimate storm are we not? We are also talking about boats designed and made for the conditions, properly equiped and competently sailed. Sliding patio doors and no transoms on the arse end of anything is not going to fill me with confidence if I'm more than a few hours from a pub. I have just returned from a couple of months in a very large Marina in California. Wall to wall production boats and one in a hundred which could really be classed as an off shore yacht but virually all ideally suited for their purpose. Lots of beam, large cockpits, numerous dunnys and so on. ( I didn't see a single multi hull but they must be there somewhere) Weekends off to Catalina and home again with lots of ginn and local wine (which has improved out of site in the last ten years). If thats what I wanted a boat for I would be seriously looking at a multi. In fact, now that I'm getting to be of a certian age it probably is what I want a boat for. Hmmmmmmm
__________________
Ian McD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-11-2011, 21:23   #133
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,452
Images: 69
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

Actually, we aren't talking about the ultimate storm. We're talking about a circumnavigation, probably 99% of which are completed without seeing wind much over 35-40 knots.

But the fact is, cats can and have survived severe storms. Storms that have rolled and sunk monohulls.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-11-2011, 04:39   #134
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Dover, UK
Boat: Ex liveaboard, now grounded.
Posts: 64
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

And would you please stop comparing a monohull designed to be ocean-worthy against a cat designed as a floating cottage or vice versa.

Richard Woods' site Woods Designs has a great deal of information and explanation in this area, highly recommended. He designs cats on sensible, non-cottage lines, has over 70,000 cruising miles, has built and used many of his own designs, has lived aboard his own designs for many years and experienced an extreme storm in his cat Eclipse. The site has a detailed account of that storm, ending in their rescue by helicopter. The boat, however, survived, right way up and months later was still afloat in the Pacific.
__________________
steve ripples is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23-09-2012, 07:48   #135
Registered User
 
Jimbo485's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: some ocean down under
Boat: Kelsall Suncat 40
Posts: 1,247
Re: 40' Required for Circumnavigation

So, is there any cruiser out there who uses a keel for stability in both their main vessel and also their liferaft / lifeboat?

Or do they all take the ironical path of a form stable liferaft if the main vessel is abandoned?

It is a serious question.
__________________

__________________

Jimbo485 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
circumnavigation

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
When Is the STCW Certification Required ? off-the-grid Training, Licensing & Certification 5 02-09-2011 18:56
Fusion 40 Sail Catamarans / South Korea G.E.L. Korea Commercial Posts 0 20-08-2011 22:51
Anyone Know Anything About the Vindo 40? sanjuanman Monohull Sailboats 0 20-07-2011 19:45



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:53.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.