40' Required for Circumnavigation

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Jimbo485

Hummingway, the following applies only to us. Conventional wisdom says have an inboard, but outboards have come a long way...

PROS

No thru hulls for shaft, nor cooling water, nor exhaust. (Simple. Safe. Cheap.)
Easy removal for maintenance either in the cockpit or ashore. We have done both. (Also simple, cheap and sooo convenient.)
When sailing, we kick up both outboards and remove our "sailing handbrake". (Performance.)
They do not take away from below decks volume. Nor pollute the below decks atmosphere, like engines beneath the aft bunks. (Comfort.)
The 3rd world fishing fleet operates with outboards. (Spare parts. Mechanics.)

CONS

Take away volume from cockpit lockers. (Not significant, but should be considered.)
More exposed to the elements than inboards. (Use that WD40, mate!)
Props can suck down some air and cavitate in extreme conditions. (Minimal but it depends on outboard length and longitudinal position - forward and deep is obviously better.)
Easy theft.

Some other pro's:

Maintenance is easier, is done in the open air and sunlight.

Propellors are always spotlessly clean. No barnacles reducing their efficiency. Ever.

No need for expensive delicate folding propellors. Some folding props cost as much as an entire outboard. With prop!

No need for "aluminium friendly" but innefective antifoul around saildrives.

If you also have daggerboards and kickup rudders you have the ultimate in shallow draught. We draw less than .5m.

Cheaper.

Lighter.

You'll sail more, motor less.

Some of the con's:

Pretty small generator capacity.

No hot water.

A bit more thirsty per hp. Diesel has more BTU's than petrol, no getting around it.

[dennisail]

44cruising cat.

So why is it almost every topic that starts "I want to buy a cat, which one should I get?" has half a dozen of you guys saying - "Buy a mono, they are safer better looking faster blah blah blah..."

What is it with you guys really? Do you see any of us over on the monohull forum telling people who want to buy a mono that they should buy a cat? EVER?

I just read this whole thread again and it is apparent you have severe case of sandyvag. There are no mono guys bashing cats in this thread. Mostly genuine answers to the question asked by the OP. No "mono guy" has suggested the op should buy a mono. Most bashing has been done by YOU toward monos.

People were always going to touch on the subject of why small monos may be regarded as safer since that is what the OP asked! The question was asked, opinions (quite non biased I think) were given. Seems to me the overwhelming response from pretty much everyone is that the OPs suggestion of a 40 foot cat is indeed very safe and smaller is probably safe enough.

Mono's are self righting. MOSTLY they are not. They are less stable upside down than right way up, so the sea state that rolled them over will USUALLY right them. But not always

So monos are mostly not self righting, but they usually are? Irrelevant scenarios such as crane lifting a mono upside down in flat water are not really relevant at all.

A monohulls is right-side up...
On the bottom.

Who is doing the bashing again?

Now I get it! A cat at 20 degrees has "capsized" whereas a mono has to go 180', riiiiiiiight!

Hey, YOU (hummingway) said catamarans capsize at a lower angle! Possibly the dumbest statement Iv'e seen on the topic, and there have been some beauts!

Humming way is right. Cats do capsise at lower angles. A cat will continue to capsize once it gets to a little over 90deg a decent cruisng mono needs to get to somewhere between 115-180. This is just a fact. Your argument is wrong. The sensible argument is that the energy needed to reach the limit of positive stability of a cat vs mono will be MUCH higher in the first place for a cat (of the same length) Therefore the cat will be less likely to reach 90 deg, than the mono to reach 115-180. That's comparing boats of the same length.

However, people buy according to funds available. What does the GZ curve look like when comparing a $150K cat to a $150K mono? The mono will be much longer. I have no idea which one comes out on top there, but it is food for thought...



For the record I freely admit owning a cruising mono because I can't afford a cat worth buying. I like cats (even better tris) and I aspire to own one in the future. My preference is performance, which is why I like tris. But I just love the more performance orientated cruisers and I certainly admit that a performance cruising cat will out sail a mono even to an upwind destination. So would like to think I am not biased.

[Jimbo485]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

One negative factor not mentioned- weight distribution. All the propulsion equipent cantilevered off the stern. That as to be a big negative on a light cat.

That depends, Dockhead. (Creative name, BTW!)

Our outboards are about 12´ from the stern and 28´ from the bow. Not in the centre, but definitely not cantilevered off the stern. In fact, their positioning means they are not very visible for theft and impossible to get pooped. We access them by lifting up the cockpit bench seats. They kick up into the actual cockpit lockers beneath the cockpit seats.

[Blue Stocking]

IMHO, if there was a single answer to this question, we would all be sailing that boat, wouldn't we??

[Jimbo485]

Originally Posted by dennisail

I would feel totally safe in a 40ish foot cat and I would not be scared to sail a smaller one around the world via the tropics. If I had to sail around Antarctica on a 28 foot boat, I would choose a mono since the chance both might capsize would be high enough to be a concern.

I agree.

However, if true blue mono fanatics really think cats are dangerous, I sincerely hope they walk the talk and have a liferaft that relies on a ballasted keel and not shape for its stability. Never seen one on a cruising boat yet.

[hummingway]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Hey, YOU said catamarans capsize at a lower angle! Possibly the dumbest statement Iv'e seen on the topic, and there have been some beauts!

So you don't worry about reefing ahead of time then since a good gust will spill from your sails and you'll recover? That's interesting you're the first person I've come across that suggests that cats can heel as far as a mono can. Pages such as this European Boatbuilder have it all wrong?

I'm saying that if you don't know the characteristics of a craft how will you know if it's suited for the usage you hope to make of it.

[barnakiel]

Blahblahblah - as if all monohulls had balast?

How about a cat with a float up her mast - she will heel but she will not capsize - hahaha!

If I were to talk ultimate safety (rather than ultimate stability) I would always opt for a boat: most difficult to capsize (e.g. a big cruising cat) and at the same time one to stay afloat should the unthinkable happen. A cat is such a boat, ballasted monohull is not.

Some mono owners are real blind to the fact that once capsized, most monos will shake off the rig and without the rig the hull will capsize again very soon - often a couple of times.

You ever wonder how it feels when your perfectly stable boat capsizes five times over - well get yourself into a large commercial washing machine and I will push the button.

A capsized cat is way the safest platform to get rescued - you still have most of your equipment around, you are above water and on a platform that will be easily found by the SAR.

And again back to the OP: I have never seen any capsize (nor other critical) issues in catamarans we met on our route and we met plenty. What I saw was happy people sailing in way more comfort than any given monohull.

The future of mass cruising is in the cruising catamaran - safe, comfortable and relatively fast.

Cheers,
b.

[Jimbo485]

LOL! Touché.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by dennisail

44cruising cat.




I just read this whole thread again and it is apparent you have severe case of sandyvag. There are no mono guys bashing cats in this thread. Mostly genuine answers to the question asked by the OP. No "mono guy" has suggested the op should buy a mono. Most bashing has been done by YOU toward monos.

So would like to think I am not biased.

Just re-read, and disagree. At least I'll admit I own a cat and I am biased though.

However I did clearly state that I was referring to OTHER THREADS where people would seek advice on which cat to buy and would be told to buy a mono.

ie: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...t-69098-2.html

[Factor]

I'm still waiting on a reference for dockhead's statistics. (and thinking of Disrali's famous postulation)

[Ian McD]

I have just gone through this discussion again with much dissappointment. It's a bit like the Chevy v Ford guys. A Little knowledge and a lot of 'don't want to know' ' with a fair bit of ignorance added for interest. All very entertaining but not a lot of help to the poor sod who asked the question. The question has been answered several times by ref to real info but all this seems to be ignored. In several instances, ignorance is exceeded by bad manners. There is no question that all things being equal, bigger is better. There is no question that a keel boat, properly designed, has more chance of coming through that ultimate storm right side up. Accept it and move on. It is very simple high school physics. From there we can go into to the design of each type and make both as safe as they can be given those defining characteristics. Horses for courses.

[dennisail]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Just re-read, and disagree. At least I'll admit I own a cat and I am biased though.

However I did clearly state that I was referring to OTHER THREADS where people would seek advice on which cat to buy and would be told to buy a mono.

ie: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...t-69098-2.html

I have owned several cats BTW and still own one now. My avatar pic is taken on a 31 foot tri. I have used my race beach cats for cruising and felt safe even when members of the sailing cat race club told me what I was doing was dangerous. Maybe those cat racers are biased mono lovers too but just can't admit it?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Ian McD

There is no question that a keel boat, properly designed, has more chance of coming through that ultimate storm right side up.

In your opinion. Mine differs.

[Jimbo485]

C'mon, 44'cc, he is right, the mono has more chance of coming through right side up. But he didn't say which type has more chance of coming through floating on the surface.

The stats tell us he is right but they are on the seafloor. Floating on the surface, are the cats, upside down.

How entertaining it is becoming! Where is the OP? Where is the mod?

Close this down! I have stuff to do! HELP!!!

[Ian McD]

You can knock on the door of a deaf man forever.

For my part, this discussion is over.