Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-09-2015, 08:16   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
If you take the log books of long distance sailors on catamarans, 95% come to the conclusion: Average cruising speed is 10 knots (with max. speed of 16 roughly).
You pulled this straight out of your rear end and have no evidence to support it. I bet your supposed 50' catamaran did not average 10kts over its cruising (and I bet it didn't do any "long distance" sailing).

I bet that 95% of all long distance cruising catamarans do NOT average 10kts. Heck, make that 99%.

I bet you a dollar on each point above.

Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 08:26   #17
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
And, how do you reef a wing mast? Very bad idea for a cruising boat.
A wing mast regularly has its mast root fixed on a rotating pool, e.g. as this 50 Foot catamaran has. (Source: Catamaran AquaBlue)



So why you need a reef ?? Nonsense... if you want neutralize the wing mast, just turn the whole mast into the wind so it's profile is minimalized. But it still can give the boat enough power to be steered safely.

Belizesailor... I think you are on the wrong path to think that you know about sailing, and everything else here is doing wrongly.

You have your own way to handle your boat life safely, hopefully. Every sailor has a different personality... and everybody has different limits to keep him/herself safely.

Some like sportive sailing, for others this way is already too risky. So we only can exchange here some concepts... and its up to everybody to make his / her own decisions.

Personally I'd prefer a wing rotation mast, as it gives me more options to trim the boat. For others this "stiff sail" is too risky.

We only can share in such a community like the CF online forum our own experiences... and share individually our understanding about sailing.

And about some aspects, we only can talk in theory. I never capsized, luckily... so I only can think steadily about how to avoid it.

Another multihull sailor who experienced such a drama on high seas will think very differently about such risks and will learn differently from it and make his decisions differently. Very normal.

Its a nonsense that you as sailor demand "mainly experience". So it does not work. Then I'd demand from you to show some photos of your sinking ship. As this is urgent having experienced for knowing how to handle such a life threatening situation. - Yes, I only know (by theory) and by marine training to handle leackages, fire, dismasting... but so it goes. We learn to avoid risks... and not just learning by mistakes. What is wrong with this ?

Its enough we learn from the mistakes of others so we dont come into such similarly worst situations. We had to read enough bad knews this year about skippers and crews who not only lost their boat, but same their lifes on seas.
__________________

__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 08:36   #18
Registered User
 
Skip JayR's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: see https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/
Boat: still looking for the right Tri
Posts: 430
Safetyness by speed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
HeHe - for safety, one must have average cruising speeds of at least 12-14kts.
There is no "must". You only must be born and must die.

Monohull sailors cannot think about such aspects, thats why we love to sail multihulls. As these boats give us different options (same other kind of limitations).

If you have an average cruising speed of 8 knots on a bigger monohull compared to a catamaran/trimaran with 13 knots, the difference of an 24h etmal is 120 nm, over 3 days = 360 nautical miles distance.

This is a safety aspect ( to sail away from bad weather) , isnt ?

Pesonally I would not call a cataraman with an average cruising speed of 9 knots a safe multihull boat. Thats why I always would look for a design which gives me the option to have higher average cruising speed.

Before you only give cynically critics, I want see some "rational argumentations" from you, Mark. Otherwise better keep silent !
__________________
Skip JayR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 08:40   #19
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Caribbean winters, North Dakota/Minnesota summers
Boat: Leopard 39 Owners Version
Posts: 332
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
............
717,517
I never heard of Catamarans using drogues or parachut anchors... thats mostly theory...
Obviously has not read a single account of catamarans in stormy seas. After that statement its hard to regard the rest as anything but theory.
__________________
Privleoplag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 08:43   #20
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Rational arguments require actual evidence. Unless you can provide some of that regarding your "95% of all long distance catamaran sailors average 10kts", then you should keep silent.

You may want to check out the bazillion blogs and records in existence regarding multihulls safely crossing oceans and doing long-distance sailing. Almost none of the boats fit your criteria.

BTW, there are plenty of monos out there that have speed options - they don't all putt around at 5kts.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 08:45   #21
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Privleoplag View Post
After that statement its hard to regard the rest as anything but theory.
"Theory" is being generous about many of his statements so far. Most are personal hypotheses/biases, and several border on being voices in his head.

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 08:47   #22
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,909
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

"...Belizesailor... I think you are on the wrong path to think that you know about sailing..."

I love this place!

Maybe I'll figure out this sailing thing in the next life time...having wasted a few decades doing it wrong in this lifetime, I clearly dont have enough years left to get it right.
__________________
belizesailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 08:50   #23
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,909
Re: Safetyness by speed...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
There is no "must". You only must be born and must die.

....
Reminds me of a favorite come back to "must" from a Belizean friend of mine:

"I dont HAVE to do anything but be black & die".
__________________
belizesailor is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 09:06   #24
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cruising Indian Ocean / Red Sea - home is Zimbabwe
Boat: V45
Posts: 1,282
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Yeah, I'm a slow learner, after a couple of decades, and many thousands of miles on cats of many makes/models (and monos too)...I'm still struggling to get a grasp of the basics.

You?
Belizesailor - YOU are correct. I started read the posting, then stopped with some disbelief, and seriously question the statements made. I could not continue until the end as it was too flawed, e.g. - "I never heard of Catamarans using drogues or parachute anchors... thats mostly theory..." What on earth is the basis of that statement? Its not difficult to ask Dave at Ace Sails, who sells probably the best drogue ever produced in my opinion - and which we use on our boat. As someone has not heard of this, when they are in wide use, it amply demonstrates the (non)validity of the statement. Once one statement is established as being incorrect.........
We have cruised widely on cats, first on a narrow beam Dean 365 (ugh), then on an Island Spirit 35ft, then on to a 40ft, followed by a 43ft and then a 45ft cat. We have been full time live aboard cat cruisers since 1995. We had a parachute anchor on the Dean, and then discovered Jordan drogues - we bought a new one last year as we feel it is a vital safety device for any vessel. This is evidenced by the sales figures that Ace are giving as they are literally producing thousands of these drogues. A fellow cat sailor whom we often buddy sail with is also ordering one after he sailed aboard with us and we deployed it when the wind was puffing over 50 knots from astern and was astonished at how effectively it worked (they are so effective that they are a bit of a mission to recover).

As for 38ft cats long distance cruising; there are plenty of cats out there in this bracket doing exactly that. It was not that long ago that a typical cruising boat was less then 38ft - it is a recent (say last 25years) where cruisers have adopted larger boats.

As long as the boat is well founded, well equipped (and that does not necessarily mean a big budget) and sensibly sailed then there is no reason for adverse comments. We can all trawl for negative comments and produce charts / statistics to attempt to prove our points, just as many people claimed for years the world was flat.

The proof of the pudding, as you say, is the real world. Your own 35ft boat aptly demonstrates the point in question.
__________________
Bulawayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 09:18   #25
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

The Prout 37 Snowgoose probably has more safely sailed bluewater miles and circumnavigations than any cat so far. All this with a 15'3" beam and performance known to be less than stellar. I guess they were all lucky? And to say you wouldn't own a cruising cat that didn't average at least 10 knots? Dude you are in for a long wait.


Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
__________________
smj is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 09:20   #26
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cruising Indian Ocean / Red Sea - home is Zimbabwe
Boat: V45
Posts: 1,282
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skip JayR View Post
I skippered professionally for a private owner a 50 foot Cruising catamaran over two seasons (and live on it). So at least I know about boats of that size... and with max. speed >20 knots.

If you take the log books of long distance sailors on catamarans, 95% come to the conclusion: Average cruising speed is 10 knots (with max. speed of 16 roughly). While cruising sailors on monohulls have an average speed of 5-6 knots.

If you then compare it with the more sportive boats, e.g. trimarans which can go up to 25 knots max. and sail at higher average speed it gives more options for safe routing plannings. Logically, simple maths.
Hi Skip Jay - I have to question where and how you came by this information. I am always asking fellow cruisers about their boats, be they cats or 'half-boats'. I also ask about equipment and what worked well and what didn't.
In over 20 years of cruising (and around 15 years of additional sailing before then) I have never heard anyone claiming such average figures. Are you talking about cruising boats or Sydney Harbour racing skiffs?
Your 50ft boat with > 20knots of speed.....is that a converted MTB?
__________________
Bulawayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 09:29   #27
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Cruising Indian Ocean / Red Sea - home is Zimbabwe
Boat: V45
Posts: 1,282
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
You pulled this straight out of your rear end and have no evidence to support it. I bet your supposed 50' catamaran did not average 10kts over its cruising (and I bet it didn't do any "long distance" sailing).

I bet that 95% of all long distance cruising catamarans do NOT average 10kts. Heck, make that 99%.

I bet you a dollar on each point above.

Mark
Hi Mark, you and I do not always agree on some issues, but perhaps you are being a little harsh?
After all, the MacGregor 26ft can wear a 50hp outboard and manage over 20 knots! Perhaps this 50ft boat has a transom filled with 200hp outboards with a typical passage distance of just a few miles enabling high averages to be posted?

I also brought my 32ft monohull back to Cape Town, from Rio, at an average speed of 16 knots, in 1976.
Perhaps I should clarify........we came back as deck cargo, courtesy of SAF Marine.
__________________
Bulawayo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 09:31   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 228
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
The 420 is nice.. however the fly bridge steering position is the deal breaker.. full exposure in heavy weather, lethal for any sail work.. and clambering up and down from the cockpit in a sea sucks.
Lagoon 420/421 does not have flybridge steering, it has bulkhead helm. All bigger Lagoons, starting L440/450 have flybridge. I tried L450 (for two weeks only) and hated it as much as you did for the same reasons. That was a deal-breaker for me.
__________________
BambooSailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 09:46   #29
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by smj View Post
Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum
What is that I see in your profile data? A new boat already? Did I miss a thread on this? Did you get tired of mowing lawns and gardening so soon?

Mark
__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-09-2015, 09:47   #30
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: 38' cat OK to circumnavigate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulawayo View Post
Hi Mark, you and I do not always agree on some issues, but perhaps you are being a little harsh?
After all, the MacGregor 26ft can wear a 50hp outboard and manage over 20 knots! Perhaps this 50ft boat has a transom filled with 200hp outboards with a typical passage distance of just a few miles enabling high averages to be posted?

I also brought my 32ft monohull back to Cape Town, from Rio, at an average speed of 16 knots, in 1976.
Perhaps I should clarify........we came back as deck cargo, courtesy of SAF Marine.


Mark
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
General Info: Adequate cat for a couple to circumnavigate under 200k gtpinhei Fountaine Pajot 20 11-02-2014 21:23
Challenge: Youngest Goat to Circumnavigate? David_Old_Jersey Challenges 184 17-09-2010 21:54
Circumnavigate / Cruise / Sail sailorboy1 General Sailing Forum 12 30-03-2010 07:01
Circumnavigate Beneteau 47.3 ISLANDCHIEF60 Monohull Sailboats 64 18-08-2009 21:01



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:34.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.