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Old 10-09-2008, 17:28   #1
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36Ft Endevor

Just recently took a look at a 36ft endevor 1999, 150k. Nice boat, I do not know to much about cats and how well they perform at sea. I have done some reading and I see confliting few points on how well they handle in heavy weather. would like to get some opinions from some of you that currently own and sail cats.
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Old 11-09-2008, 10:52   #2
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Imagine a circle divided into three equal slices. Label them performance, accommodations, and low price. Throw a dart, and you will probably hit a catamaran on today's market. It will offer, perhaps, a little more accommodation than performance and cost less than a boat that offers more of the other two parameters. You can find a boat so cheap that is offers very little performance or accommodation, or one that has so much of both, that it costs more than anything else on the market. You can have a lot of any two.
If you've read very much of this site, you will understand that for any given length of catamaran, The high end range includes Catana, Outremer, Freydis, Maine Cat and some smaller production houses like FastCat. For more creature comforts at the price of slightly lower performance, St Francis, and possibly Broad Blue come to mind. Cats built primarily for the charter trade are more economical and less performance oriented; see Lagoon, Fontaine Pajot, and Privilege. There are a wider selection of boats built to appeal to less affluent customers, and each of them represent some compromises to achieve that end.
Older boats cost less but require substantial maintenance expense to retain the usability of a newer boat. Most of that maintenance is within the ability of a moderately skilled owner, who can buy a cat for less, and bring it up to par with newer boats at the expense of considerable time and effort.
Pride of ownership, defense of one's decisions, salesmanship, and just plain ego will confuse these ground rules with a lot of quibbling, yes-buts, and anecdotal rebuttal, but it boils down to one very rigid rule. You get what you pay for. There are no bird's-nests-on-the-ground, and nobody drops a zero by mistake. Most boats sell within 15% of the asking price, or they don't sell at all. There are, however, a lot more boats for sale that won't sell because they are over-priced. Because of the relatively small size of the multihull market, and the relatively high price per pound of catamarans, many boats will be on the market for months or a year as a matter of course, even when they are priced right.
The Endeavor Cats did not make a big hit on the market because they didn't reach very high into the performance spectrum. Boats with more sparking performance, like the PDQs and the smallest French cats outsold them. If a group of aficionados were required, at gunpoint, to nominate three brands for the title "Condomaran" you would hear the name "Endeavor"
Many of us get a little sniffy about boats that are unabashedly designed to maximize the accommodation spectrum, but we loose sight of the fact that life is not always a race, and voluntarily braving harsh weather in deep, cold, blue water is not a measure of manhood. I would much rather live on an Endeavor 36 than an Osborne 42.
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Old 11-09-2008, 12:29   #3
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Regarding quality of the Endeavor - we have a Manta 40 built by Endeavor around the same time as the boat in question. They share many of the same parts and subassemblies (hatches, furniture, etc - economy of scale and all that). The build quality and quality of parts on our boat is very high. Vinylester resin, biaxial/triaxial glass, substantial tabbing, quality hatches, etc. Victory 35's were also built by Endeavor for a period of time. I have been on one of these boats and they also had the same build quality and parts as ours.

I suspect the E36 shares this high build quality. There were/are actually quite a few of these boats made. However, the design does not lend itself well to extended voyaging, so you don't see a lot of them "out there". However, extended voyaging was not Endeavor's market goal for this boat. Instead, they made it for coastal cruising - mostly from marina to marina - and focused on living space and interior usability.

Hence Sandy's accurate description as "condomaran" - which is not at all denigrating if the demographic exists and the maker hits it as well as Endeavor did with this boat. It only seems like an unsavory term if you aren't in that market.

The only downside is that it seems almost impossible to hit this market segment with a good looking catamaran.

BTW, "condomaran" is a very relative term - our Manta has been called one may times. It would appear that the usage of this term only abates at the Playstation/Cheyenne/Orange level (although among them, I suspect it still gets bandied about).

Mark
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:13   #4
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Well said Mark! It is interesting to note that a little disdain from us cognoscenti means that a perfectly suitable liveaboard boat can be had for a lot less money than a ragged old racer cruiser with cold water, exposed plumbing, and fuel in plastic cans!
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:22   #5
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Well said both of you!
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Old 12-09-2008, 11:35   #6
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Well said Mark! It is interesting to note that a little disdain from us cognoscenti means that a perfectly suitable liveaboard boat can be had for a lot less money than a ragged old racer cruiser with cold water, exposed plumbing, and fuel in plastic cans!
But, Hut, you really asked about cats in heavy weather. Several months ago I was quoted in reference to comparative safety among single and multihull sailing vessels in a thread beginning at
MULTIHULL MONOHULL SURVEY
However, clearly presenting the objective evidence to anyone enamoured of a particularly juicey contrary anecdotal account has never met with much success! Many of us on either side of the multihull/monomaran fence defend our loyalties with religious fervor.
The bottom line is that the human element is the controlling variable in boating safety. Incompetence has no preference for type of boat, and mother nature could care even less. Stretch your limits daily, but never break them.
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Old 16-09-2008, 08:38   #7
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Sandy, you wrote:
"However, clearly presenting the objective evidence to anyone enamoured of a particularly juicey contrary anecdotal account has never met with much success!". Jeez mate - too true, just take a look at the Climate Change thread !!!!!!
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Old 16-09-2008, 09:56   #8
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This is my 2 cents. I like both cats and monos but bought a mono. The deciding factor was I didn't like the pounding under the wing when going to windward or the hobby horsing when the sea was abeam. My experience was with two different fifty footers, a forty and lastly a thirty eight. I sail off shore and for long trips. I do miss the many staterooms and flat sailing of a cat.
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Old 16-09-2008, 13:19   #9
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Funsail: you should also have mentioned that the price per pound for a Cat with enough bridge clearance to reduce pounding to an acceptable level is OUTRAGEOUS compared to a Gulfstar.
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Old 16-09-2008, 14:34   #10
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You are correct in that matter. For a cat to do what I want would cost about 3 to 1, but it would be a rally nice boat. A Gulfstar gives a big bang for the buck. Should I ever win the lottery, a Catana 44 or 50 would be sooooooooooo nice!
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Old 16-09-2008, 18:55   #11
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Well give me a few days to digest what was just said and maybe I'll understand some of it. I appriciate all the input. We are looking both at Mono and Multi and trying to weigh the pro's and cons, so all info and opinions are appriciated.
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Old 16-09-2008, 19:52   #12
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My situation is that we will be buying once we leave Australia in a year or so (prices are way too high here) and the Admiral and I have decided on a cat for our long-term cruising plans. I looked at all the pro's and con's, including the fact that I enjoy the "feel" of sailing a mono (pro mono), cost (pro mono) etc. etc., but what it boiled down to at the end of the day was her wish to have a vessel that doesn't heel (she doesn't enjoy the "feel") and has intrinsic buoyancy in case we get holed. That, plus the fact that you get significantly more volume for the same LOA and you have a nice raised and expansive view from the cabin sewed it up for us.
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Old 17-09-2008, 13:38   #13
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Invest in a charter or two, both of you. It won't be in an Endeavor, but it will give you a good feeling about the qualities we have been talking about. You will find that many cats can give you all the sailing pleasure you want. I sail both, and still don't understand how healing a boat makes it more fun!
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