Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 02-07-2012, 04:22   #16
Registered User
 
Eleven's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Southampton UK
Boat: Jaguar 22 mono called Arfur.
Posts: 1,220
Images: 3
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

Floatation is an owners option. I save all the plastic bottles that come into the house and stuff them (capped) into all the cavities and spaces on my boat. Not fixed, just in case of a penetrating wound to the hull, but there are enough on board now to slow the rate of sinking, hopefully. The lead (iron keel) on the bottom is a quarantee it will sink unless I fit several car air bags to it. I also hope to see several/many bottles floating around the swimming me as the boat slips gracefully? beneath the waves.
Those milk bottles make great food storage by the way.
__________________

__________________
Ex Prout 31 Sailor, Now it's a 22ft Jaguar called 'Arfur' here in sunny Southampton, UK.
A few places left in Quayside Marina and Kemps Marina.
Eleven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 04:46   #17
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eleven View Post
From that other Forum (where there seems to be a total lack of Moderation).
Lol! - but nonetheless I am on my 3rd lifetime ban from there .
__________________

David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 05:00   #18
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

I just got off the ferry from the UK this morning after participating in the Quarter Tonner Cup and Round Island Race...

The winds were strong, althought not strong for the area, at around 25 and gusting to over 30.

In our class alone 3 boats lost their masts and 1 lost their rudder. There was a serious ebb tide flowing against the wind on the first upwind leg to the Needles. We snapped a halyard on our jib and had two blocks at the base of the mast blow for our vang and starboard jib sheet and had to retire just before the Needles.

What caught out alot of boats on the backside was the 3-4meter swell rolling in. There were many crash jibes and damaged rigging, especially after St. Catherines when the wind angle was very deep.

The main culprit was uppers parting and the mast dropping at the spreaders. Out fleet is light and fast and if not handled in these conditions properly, easily damaged.

Here is a pic of "Catch Me" from our fleet, one of the three that lost masts...
Click image for larger version

Name:	catchme-broken.jpg
Views:	188
Size:	138.8 KB
ID:	42955

What a great race - nothing like tacking up a channel with 1,600 other boats...

...and then having to retire and go through all of them again downwind
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 05:04   #19
Pusher of String
 
foolishsailor's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: On the hard; Trinidad
Boat: Trisbal 42, Aluminum Cutter Rigged Sloop
Posts: 2,314
Images: 19
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

Quote:
Originally Posted by conachair View Post
ouch - looks like the wind got under it once it was up high enough...
__________________
"So, rather than appear foolish afterward, I renounce seeming clever now."
William of Baskerville

"You will do foolish things, but do them with enthusiasm."
Sidonie Gabrielle Colette
foolishsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 11:58   #20
Registered User
 
webejammin's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pacific NW, sailing the Columbia River, USA
Boat: Gemini 105MC 34 ft hull#753
Posts: 951
Images: 3
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

We have a Gemini 105Mc and we have all our extra space filled with caped water bottles about 800 of them in areas in each hull aft of the water tanks if we hit something it may help. Too bad someone sank a nice crusing cat in a race just for kiks. Open ocean sailing in big waves in a Gemini I'm told not to use our centerboards mre than 1/3 down and let it slide off the waves is the safe way, but I guess not for racing
__________________
Wind in my hair and a nice catamaran
Phil & Elaine
webejammin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 12:27   #21
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by webejammin
We have a Gemini 105Mc and we have all our extra space filled with caped water bottles about 800 of them in areas in each hull aft of the water tanks if we hit something it may help. Too bad someone sank a nice crusing cat in a race just for kiks. Open ocean sailing in big waves in a Gemini I'm told not to use our centerboards mre than 1/3 down and let it slide off the waves is the safe way, but I guess not for racing
I always wondered about the water bottle idea. on one hand, 800 water bottles at usual 16 ounce (0.5L) would be 400 liters, or 880 lbs of buoyancy.
I guess that would make a difference, although still less that 10% of a gemini's displacement, and take up a bunch of storage space where I would prefer things like extra anchor rode, clothing, safety gear, etc....
__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 13:25   #22
Registered User
 
webejammin's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Pacific NW, sailing the Columbia River, USA
Boat: Gemini 105MC 34 ft hull#753
Posts: 951
Images: 3
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
I always wondered about the water bottle idea. on one hand, 800 water bottles at usual 16 ounce (0.5L) would be 400 liters, or 880 lbs of buoyancy.
I guess that would make a difference, although still less that 10% of a gemini's displacement, and take up a bunch of storage space where I would prefer things like extra anchor rode, clothing, safety gear, etc....
The location for storing the extra flotation of the empty 16oz water bottles is thru a 8 inch round hatch that is normally empty in case the rudders need repairs. On a catamaran which you don't have malbert, we have lots more storage in outside lazeretts than is ever needed not like a monohull at all.
__________________
Wind in my hair and a nice catamaran
Phil & Elaine
webejammin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 13:39   #23
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,032
Quote:
Originally Posted by webejammin

The location for storing the extra flotation of the empty 16oz water bottles is thru a 8 inch round hatch that is normally empty in case the rudders need repairs. On a catamaran which you don't have malbert, we have lots more storage in outside lazeretts than is ever needed not like a monohull at all.
Wow.
I simply was wondering what people's thoughts were on this topic, not at all mono/multi. Defensive at all?


Incidentally, my mono has lazarattes you could live in, so your reply was unfounded.

And thank you for telling me I have a monohull. I was wondering why my bridgedeck doesnt slam.
__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 13:49   #24
Registered User
 
malbert73's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2008
Boat: Tartan 40
Posts: 1,032
Now, does anyone have any real world experience with the water bottle flotation system? An intriguing idea for unballasted craft....
__________________
malbert73 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 14:04   #25
Moderator
 
noelex 77's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Living on dirt waiting for our new yacht to be built.
Boat: Half built Bestevaer.
Posts: 10,619
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

Quote:
Originally Posted by webejammin View Post
The location for storing the extra flotation of the empty 16oz water bottles is thru a 8 inch round hatch that is normally empty in case the rudders need repairs. On a catamaran which you don't have malbert, we have lots more storage in outside lazeretts than is ever needed not like a monohull at all.
No crusing boat has more storage "than is ever needed". Some boats are limited by weight rather than volume, but all crusing boats would rather be able to carry more fuel, water, tools food spares etc
You can make do with very small amounts and still have a great time, but more storage is easier more luxurious and cheaper. My first crusing boat carried 34 l (9gal) of fuel my current one 1000l (270 gal). You don't have to be able to carry this much, but it makes life easier and enables options that would not be possible otherwise. The same is true of other storage.
__________________
noelex 77 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 14:25   #26
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
I always wondered about the water bottle idea. on one hand, 800 water bottles at usual 16 ounce (0.5L) would be 400 liters, or 880 lbs of buoyancy.
I guess that would make a difference, although still less that 10% of a gemini's displacement, and take up a bunch of storage space where I would prefer things like extra anchor rode, clothing, safety gear, etc....
I think it is as much about displacement of the water as the bouyancy provided - the less space for water inside the less problem it is, both in weight and sloshing around (a ton or 2 of water in a confind space will do a lot of damage when it is moving (at least it would do on a mono - the physics maybe different on other hull configurations).
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2012, 15:26   #27
Registered User
 
Eleven's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Southampton UK
Boat: Jaguar 22 mono called Arfur.
Posts: 1,220
Images: 3
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

For those elsewhere, St Catherines Point is the southerly point of the long diamond of the Isle of White. Trade wind is along the coast line after running well clear of the rock WNW.
I've never dared run South of the Island, the only harbour is only safe if you're already in it, and it's a long run just to get around the corner and into lightly sheltered shallows.
The number of masts is no surprise, it was gusty on shore, out there, in a swell that had run in from the atlantic, unchecked until it reached the Isle, some sharp helming was going to be required. Fortunately no lives were lost, though many may well have thought it was their turn. Sea was cold and rough. Plenty of boats but not easy weather to recover swimmers, and too cold (July in the UK, so they tell me) to stay in the water for long.
__________________
Ex Prout 31 Sailor, Now it's a 22ft Jaguar called 'Arfur' here in sunny Southampton, UK.
A few places left in Quayside Marina and Kemps Marina.
Eleven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 09:14   #28
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

<object width='450' height='370'><param name='movie' value='http://www.rnlivideolibrary.org.uk/swf/rnli_player.swf?vid=PWFtPMtk' /><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src='http://www.rnlivideolibrary.org.uk/swf/rnli_player.swf?vid=PWFtPMtk' type='application/x-shockwave-flash' width='450' height='370' allowscriptaccess='always' allowfullscreen='true'></object>

Well, that didn't work..............


http://www.rnlivideolibrary.org.uk/g...x?vid=PWFtPMtk
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 09:30   #29
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Re: 2012 Round The Island Race (& Gemini capsize)

Quote:
Originally Posted by malbert73 View Post
Now, does anyone have any real world experience with the water bottle flotation system? An intriguing idea for unballasted craft....

There has been a lot of discussion on the Gem owners site regarding this. Those that have done the math say that filling the voids with bottles will not be enough to support the boat and keep it from sinking. Bottles filling the spaces leave too much space around them. Then there is the argument that they are porous (relatively) and the repeated expansion and contraction through days > seasons will actually contract them some.

Some have taken the trouble to fill the "water tight" compartments with USCG approved foam. Their math says they are now unsinkable. Down side is if the boat is ever searched severely it will be completely destroyed by the end.

Some have cut and fitted Styrofoam "battens" of a high quality (don't remember source) that completely fill the compartments and other voids stating that their math is good too.

No one that has done any of these has ever had the pleasure of testing it live.

There have only been 3 or 4 Gems that have capsized while sailing in their entire history. Two of those were charterers. This one is either 3 or 4 - can't remember for sure. One sank at a dock and they never figured out why. One was flipped while at anchor in a hurricane. That is about it.
__________________
Who knows what is next.
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2012, 10:02   #30
smj
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2007
Boat: Searunner 38 catamaran
Posts: 3,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy

There has been a lot of discussion on the Gem owners site regarding this. Those that have done the math say that filling the voids with bottles will not be enough to support the boat and keep it from sinking. Bottles filling the spaces leave too much space around them. Then there is the argument that they are porous (relatively) and the repeated expansion and contraction through days > seasons will actually contract them some.

Some have taken the trouble to fill the "water tight" compartments with USCG approved foam. Their math says they are now unsinkable. Down side is if the boat is ever searched severely it will be completely destroyed by the end.

Some have cut and fitted Styrofoam "battens" of a high quality (don't remember source) that completely fill the compartments and other voids stating that their math is good too.

No one that has done any of these has ever had the pleasure of testing it live.

There have only been 3 or 4 Gems that have capsized while sailing in their entire history. Two of those were charterers. This one is either 3 or 4 - can't remember for sure. One sank at a dock and they never figured out why. One was flipped while at anchor in a hurricane. That is about it.
I can think of 6 Geminis that have flipped of hand. The locations were SF Bay, Seattle, Mississippi, Naples Fl, Jacksonville Fl. and now the one in England.
__________________

__________________
smj is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
capsize, gemini, race

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 18:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.