200nm/day - What's it Really Take???

[sailboatboy]

It can be done, as I have done 200 miles day cruising on my Santa Cruz 50. However, I could not do consistant 200 day in and out. I have gone from Vanuatu to Bay of Islands and from Fiji to same in under 5 days. I have also had 200 mile days when I returned from Japan to Victoria. On the same voyage, I had 6 80 mile days under ridges.

One needed item not mentioned in the above posts is an autopilot that can steer the boat and a boat that tracks so the mileage you put on is effectively down the rumbline.

In a mono hull, the length needed to sail 200 usually means added crew ( ie a larger boat), unless it is light weight sailboat. I can single hand mine but it is the limit I have wanted to. If I keep the unwanted weight out of her, I do consistently better runs and do not abuse the pilot. Lighter weight equates to speed. Speed equates to picking the location the weather overtakes you and the position on the front/low it occurs. It worked for me going/coming to NZ twice and being in the southern ocean from NZ to Gambier, Fr Polynesia.

Hope that helps a bit.

[Cool Hand Luke]

200nm/24hrs=8.33kts. That's pretty speedy even for 40+ ft boats. Anyone can hit 8.33+, but having it consistently for a 24 hour period is tough.

[cliffdykes]

Originally Posted by Cool Hand Luke

200nm/24hrs=8.33kts. That's pretty speedy even for 40+ ft boats. Anyone can hit 8.33+, but having it consistently for a 24 hour period is tough.

And generally uncomfortable.

Cheers
Cliff

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by cliffdykes

And generally uncomfortable.

Cheers
Cliff

Depends on the conditions. For us, we really don't start to feel like we're moving 'till around 8 knots.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dHkY_XaSGk&t=47s

Probably would want to do this all night, but all through the daylight hours would be no problem, again, given the right conditions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4PoObnQrpc

[tomfl]

Originally Posted by cliffdykes

And generally uncomfortable.

Cheers
Cliff

Speak for yourself, not for me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irPIZpQ0j10

[cliffdykes]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Depends on the conditions. For us, we really don't start to feel like we're moving 'till around 8 knots.

Probably would want to do this all night, but all through the daylight hours would be no problem, again, given the right conditions.

Which rather proves my point. The right conditions rarely prevail, and there is a huge difference, as others have said, between doing 8 knots and averaging 8 knots (or to be precise 8.33 knots) day in day out. To do the latter means spending significant periods doing more like 12-14 knots.....which can be uncomfortable (especially for those off watch who are trying to sleep!

I've been delivering the current range of 40-50 foot Lagoons/Fountaine Pajots for a while and a reasonable average is 1000 miles per week, although admittedly we are trying not to stress the boat too much in order to deliver it "as new". Trying not to stress the crew too much too.

I would say that there are very few cruising cats out there which can consistently average 200 mile days. If yours is one of them then you are very lucky.

Cheers
Cliff

[B00B00]

This is probably not that relevant to the discussion but some people might find it interesting none the less.

We once did a 24hr run of over 200nm under jury rig, with only a boom as a mast. True Story.
In fact we covered the 1870nm from the spot we lost the rig to cape horn in 10 days so an average of 187nm a day and that includes about 36hrs to get everything all rigged up and sailing properly.
Leading up to that we had the best part of a week of 400-450nm days runs until we snuffed it into the back of a monster wave at 30kts, almost pitchpoled and ripped the chainplates out...
To a cruiser this is just absolutely absurd and probably pretty stupid, its a whole different world but you get used to it and it becomes the norm. My best is 480nm in the atlantic race on a 100ft canting keeler (under to days across the North Atlantic) but to be honest on that type of boat it doesnt feel all that fast.
The open 60 at those speeds is pretty full on and very wet and uncomfortable. The motion is brutal and unpredictable with some unbelievably hard landings. Its often best to crawl around the boat. You wonder how much of it the boat and crew can handle. When you push too hard, **** breaks.
As mentioned you really become accustomed to the shear unpleasantness of it. The fun starts to diminish day after day of hauling ass, soaking wet, grinding, trimming and high intensity driving at warp speed in the pitch black on the edge of control and you just want to throttle back and have a break, but thats not what its all about on a high performance race boat. Having reliable drivers is the key and trimmers to match. Then chuck in a fearless bowman who can go forward at 30+kts of boat speed, half underwater and sort an foredeck issues out and some power house grinders who can grind all day. Its plain crazy.
Now on the other hand its another world when I jump on our Beneteau oceanis 50 with the wife and 3 kids for some extended offshore cruising for the next few years which will no doubt take some getting used too but its easier to get used to throttling back rather than the other way around! I doubt we will see many 200nm days but I really don't care, its about a safe comfortable passage.

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by B00B00

This is probably not that relevant to the discussion but some people might find it interesting none the less.

We once did a 24hr run of over 200nm under jury rig, with only a boom as a mast. True Story.
In fact we covered the 1870nm from the spot we lost the rig to cape horn in 10 days so an average of 187nm a day and that includes about 36hrs to get everything all rigged up and sailing properly.
Leading up to that we had the best part of a week of 400-450nm days runs until we snuffed it into the back of a monster wave at 30kts, almost pitchpoled and ripped the chainplates out...
To a cruiser this is just absolutely absurd and probably pretty stupid, its a whole different world but you get used to it and it becomes the norm. My best is 480nm in the atlantic race on a 100ft canting keeler (under to days across the North Atlantic) but to be honest on that type of boat it doesnt feel all that fast.
The open 60 at those speeds is pretty full on and very wet and uncomfortable. The motion is brutal and unpredictable with some unbelievably hard landings. Its often best to crawl around the boat. You wonder how much of it the boat and crew can handle. When you push too hard, **** breaks.
As mentioned you really become accustomed to the shear unpleasantness of it. The fun starts to diminish day after day of hauling ass, soaking wet, grinding, trimming and high intensity driving at warp speed in the pitch black on the edge of control and you just want to throttle back and have a break, but thats not what its all about on a high performance race boat. Having reliable drivers is the key and trimmers to match. Then chuck in a fearless bowman who can go forward at 30+kts of boat speed, half underwater and sort an foredeck issues out and some power house grinders who can grind all day. Its plain crazy.
Now on the other hand its another world when I jump on our Beneteau oceanis 50 with the wife and 3 kids for some extended offshore cruising for the next few years which will no doubt take some getting used too but its easier to get used to throttling back rather than the other way around! I doubt we will see many 200nm days but I really don't care, its about a safe comfortable passage.

Great post, I found it interesting, different world and I'm way to soft to ever experience it.

[Just Another Sa]

Originally Posted by fxykty

It's a raymarine i70 auto pilot and does either AWA or TWA. In big waves it does better with AWA and in smoother seas it is fine with TWA. Generally on a performance cat I think AWA works better as it varies with speed and requires less trimming as speed changes. I confess to setting it to the waypoint heading when wind direction is steady. How do other multi sailors set their pilots?

If your speed varied between 7 and 20 knots, with average only 9.5 knots, it can be mathematically represented by spending 19% of the time at 20 knots and 81% of the time at 7 knots. That would indicate you spent most of the time between 100...105 degrees TWA, and a very short period of time at 140 degrees TWA. If the waves rolled from the same direction as the truewind, it means the fastest way to sail would involve accelerating rapidly down the crest of the wave for a short period of time by steering more downwind, and when the speed is up steer back to the intended course at 105 degrees TWA while the boatspeed is still up and the boat is going down the wave, even when it also means apparent wind turning significantly forward.
Autopilot with apparent wind setting does pretty much the opposite, which is a lot slower way to sail. It's worse than with TWA setting, but both lose a lot to manual steering in those conditions, with target TWA at 105 degs, and not downwind and aligned with the wave direction. Since that direction indicates tight luff headsails, not gennakers, luffing the sail momentarily when going fast slows the average velocity down much less than steering totally wrong course much further downwind for the same period of time. Remember it's mostly the down hill accelerating the boatspeed, not the action of the wind, making some luffing not that important for a non-racing situation. Racers would of course trim the sails at the same time, not change the way they sail down the waves very far from the optimum like your autopilot does with apparent setting.
Now if your boat is so stable (compared to the size of the rig) it did use assy/gennaker with 25 knots true and 100 degrees TWA, it might prevent from using the fastest course in order to keep the sail in one piece.

If the wind doesn't change too much, setting the autopilot with fixed course might work, and still be better than apparent setting. In both cases you do not accelerate when it's best (at the first possibility allowed by the wave), but after that apparent setting spends a lot more time with wrong heading off the target course with no benefits avoided by the fixed course setting. Truewind setting would in theory be the same as fixed course with constant truewind vector, but it is effected by pitching motion caused by wave slope making it worse in practice. Have you ever tried to compare all of the settings?
In what respect did the pilot perform worse with truewind setting that apparent setting?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

Depends on the conditions. For us, we really don't start to feel like we're moving 'till around 8 knots.


Probably would want to do this all night, but all through the daylight hours would be no problem, again, given the right conditions.
[/URL]

I agree. In many cases, going faster is MORE comfortable. For a monohull which is not so light that it planes easily -- about 1 knot below hull speed is really comfortable -- boat is more stable, less rolly, less yaw-y. Not in all conditions, but in many cases.

When you get within a knot of hull speed, you start needing huge amounts of power, and those forces require much greater attention.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by cliffdykes

Which rather proves my point. The right conditions rarely prevail, and there is a huge difference, as others have said, between doing 8 knots and averaging 8 knots (or to be precise 8.33 knots) day in day out. To do the latter means spending significant periods doing more like 12-14 knots.....which can be uncomfortable (especially for those off watch who are trying to sleep!

I've been delivering the current range of 40-50 foot Lagoons/Fountaine Pajots for a while and a reasonable average is 1000 miles per week, although admittedly we are trying not to stress the boat too much in order to deliver it "as new". Trying not to stress the crew too much too.

I would say that there are very few cruising cats out there which can consistently average 200 mile days. If yours is one of them then you are very lucky.

Cheers
Cliff

How can you think those videos proved your point? The first one had us sailing at 9 knots with the boat so steady a house wouldn't have been any more comfortable.

Is the topic about doing 200 mile days day in, day out?

As far as I can see, it's about what is required to sail 200 miles a day. The obvious answer is: the right conditions.

[jdazey]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

And doing 200nm per day needn't be your norm or average. But rather numbers that you see semi regularly.
Oh, & this of course includes having your normal cruising gear loadout onboard when doing it.

And to be more specific, the obvious answer is the right conditions, right, boat, and right crew. Some posters in this thread have that combination.

Cheers,

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Just Another Sa

If your speed varied between 7 and 20 knots, with average only 9.5 knots, it can be mathematically represented by spending 19% of the time at 20 knots and 81% of the time at 7 knots. That would indicate you spent most of the time between 100...105 degrees TWA, and a very short period of time at 140 degrees TWA. If the waves rolled from the same direction as the truewind, it means the fastest way to sail would involve accelerating rapidly down the crest of the wave for a short period of time by steering more downwind, and when the speed is up steer back to the intended course at 105 degrees TWA while the boatspeed is still up and the boat is going down the wave, even when it also means apparent wind turning significantly forward.
Autopilot with apparent wind setting does pretty much the opposite, which is a lot slower way to sail. It's worse than with TWA setting, but both lose a lot to manual steering in those conditions, with target TWA at 105 degs, and not downwind and aligned with the wave direction. Since that direction indicates tight luff headsails, not gennakers, luffing the sail momentarily when going fast slows the average velocity down much less than steering totally wrong course much further downwind for the same period of time. Remember it's mostly the down hill accelerating the boatspeed, not the action of the wind, making some luffing not that important for a non-racing situation. Racers would of course trim the sails at the same time, not change the way they sail down the waves very far from the optimum like your autopilot does with apparent setting.
Now if your boat is so stable (compared to the size of the rig) it did use assy/gennaker with 25 knots true and 100 degrees TWA, it might prevent from using the fastest course in order to keep the sail in one piece.

If the wind doesn't change too much, setting the autopilot with fixed course might work, and still be better than apparent setting. In both cases you do not accelerate when it's best (at the first possibility allowed by the wave), but after that apparent setting spends a lot more time with wrong heading off the target course with no benefits avoided by the fixed course setting. Truewind setting would in theory be the same as fixed course with constant truewind vector, but it is effected by pitching motion caused by wave slope making it worse in practice. Have you ever tried to compare all of the settings?
In what respect did the pilot perform worse with truewind setting that apparent setting?

Thanks for all your analysis.

We had a nasty cross swell with 4-5 m from the wind direction and 2-3 m at about 90 degrees forward of the wind direction (just off the bow) so wave acceleration was not a big factor. Most accelerations down the predominant swells were stopped by the cross swell and required trimmed sails to keep moving at a reasonable pace. The accelerations that weren't stopped by cross swells drove the boat to high teens and low 20s and then the AWA setting wasn't great as we fell off the surf. But most of the time our course through the water and speed didn't vary all that much - we spent the vast majority of the time between 8.5 and 11 knots.

We did try TWA setting but often had us speeding up too much at too close an angle to the apparent wind. We had 70% furled jib (30% showing) and 3rd reef in the main and given the wave conditions were overpowered whenever the AWA went too far forward.

Hand steering in the waves was marginally faster but took way more mental effort and to be effective would've needed constant sail trimming - not an option for a short handed crew.

Once the wind and swell dropped we switched to TWA heading adjusted as needed to get us towards our destination waypoint. Wind direction was very steady. Fixed heading would have worked also, but would have meant sail trimming with the oscillations.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by jdazey

And to be more specific, the obvious answer is the right conditions, right, boat, and right crew. Some posters in this thread have that combination.

Cheers,

Given the right boat, you don't need right conditions nor right crew. A boat that can easily attain 8.3 knots average in most conditions under autopilot is what it takes and is most applicable to cruising. Unfortunately that generally means larger and lighter and more expensive and more effort to maintain.

In exceptional circumstances a not quite right boat can achieve that average, but will need either or both of right conditions and right (skilled and numerous?) crew.

[jbinbi]

Stock lagoon 380. 7.3kts in 12 true, 15 apparent at 50 deg. If I can fall off to 60, I am close to 8. If you can give me 15 true at 60 deg, I am at 8+. Great sailing condomaran .