2 to 1 Halyard

[charliehows]

not a fan of 2:1 halyards since my mizzen halyard jammed in the block trying to drop the sail under the bloody sydney harbour bridge (ie; busiest part of the harbour). Its a small sail and there was no reason to have any tackle on it. the mainsail has a s/s cable and deck winch which i think is a better solution to any problems with loading. KISS is the best policy.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by charliehows

not a fan of 2:1 halyards since my mizzen halyard jammed in the block trying to drop the sail under the bloody sydney harbour bridge (ie; busiest part of the harbour). Its a small sail and there was no reason to have any tackle on it. the mainsail has a s/s cable and deck winch which i think is a better solution to any problems with loading. KISS is the best policy.

But you KISS includes the need for power.....that's not KISS???

[model 10]

Originally Posted by DotDun

But you KISS includes the need for power.....that's not KISS???

I'm getting weak, that is why I did a 2:1. I felt I needed to be able to raise the main by hand.

[Double-Wide]

Just flake the tail after hoisting, that will remove any twist. Remember flaking is coiling the halyard with figure eights will remove any twists that might be induced by the winch or any blocks.


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[doublewide]

We have the same setup, have had the same problem with twists, and here is the reason for the twists, along with the solution.

To raise the main, you put four turns on the winch and hoist away. Then you close the rope clutch and take the halyard off the winch. If you think about the twist-status of the part of the halyard between the clutch and the bitter end, you know that the sum of all twists in that segment is zero (the bitter end didn't rotate.) But the turns you put around the winch put four clockwise twists into the part of the halyard that is on the winch and four counterclockwise twists in the part of the halyard right next to the winch. Those four clockwise twists stay on the winch as you hoist, and the counterclockwise twists stay in the part of the halyard where you introduced them. When you take the halyard off the winch, the clockwise twists are now in a different part of the halyard than they were when you started. The twists are no longer near the complimentary counter-clockwise twists, but rather are a distance about twice the height of your mast away from where they started. If you now lower the main, you transfer the clockwise twists through the clutch and up into your 2 to 1 tackle, and when the sail is fully down you haven't yet reached the part of the halyard that contains the counter-clockwise twists. The right and left twists never get a chance to cancel each other, because you keep separating them as you hoist. Over time you add more and more twist to the 2 to 1 tackle and probably unconsciously pass the left-over counter-clockwise twists off the bitter end.
The solution: after you hoist, and before you stow the halyard, pass all induced twist back down the line from the winch toward the bitter end until the twists cancel each other. Just swing the line like a jump rope, advancing the right twist toward the bitter end until it cancels the left twist way back where you started.
I hope that makes sense.

[AndyBerry]

Originally Posted by doublewide

We have the same setup, have had the same problem with twists, and here is the reason for the twists, along with the solution.

To raise the main, you put four turns on the winch and hoist away. Then you close the rope clutch and take the halyard off the winch. If you think about the twist-status of the part of the halyard between the clutch and the bitter end, you know that the sum of all twists in that segment is zero (the bitter end didn't rotate.) But the turns you put around the winch put four clockwise twists into the part of the halyard that is on the winch and four counterclockwise twists in the part of the halyard right next to the winch. Those four clockwise twists stay on the winch as you hoist, and the counterclockwise twists stay in the part of the halyard where you introduced them. When you take the halyard off the winch, the clockwise twists are now in a different part of the halyard than they were when you started. The twists are no longer near the complimentary counter-clockwise twists, but rather are a distance about twice the height of your mast away from where they started. If you now lower the main, you transfer the clockwise twists through the clutch and up into your 2 to 1 tackle, and when the sail is fully down you haven't yet reached the part of the halyard that contains the counter-clockwise twists. The right and left twists never get a chance to cancel each other, because you keep separating them as you hoist. Over time you add more and more twist to the 2 to 1 tackle and probably unconsciously pass the left-over counter-clockwise twists off the bitter end.
The solution: after you hoist, and before you stow the halyard, pass all induced twist back down the line from the winch toward the bitter end until the twists cancel each other. Just swing the line like a jump rope, advancing the right twist toward the bitter end until it cancels the left twist way back where you started.
I hope that makes sense.

It does make sense. I have to do the same thing with electrical cord at times. How often are you required to do you do that with your halyard to keep it twist free? One suggestion was to put a swivel at the masthead halyard attachment and a fixed block (rather than swivel) on main head car. This sounds like it would resolve the issue. Also using a 12 strand single braid line would help. Thx for your input.

[charliehows]

I must be gettin' old - now you mention a winch and people just assume its electric - WTF?

[Zuri]

Lock the block on the head of the mainsail so it cannot rotate and the problem will be solved. Most blocks have a pin or some type of lock to stop the block rotating, if you cannot lock the one you have Lewmar an harken sell
Them.


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[Stumble]

Originally Posted by Zuri

Lock the block on the head of the mainsail so it cannot rotate and the problem will be solved. Most blocks have a pin or some type of lock to stop the block rotating, if you cannot lock the one you have Lewmar an harken sell
Them.


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You have never owned a slinky? Fixing the block will just hide the problem a little bit longer unto the line twists over itself and herniates.

[ggray]

Maybe, but it has always seemed to me that the winching action itself twists the halyard; it rolls over as the wraps are forced up. I used to watch it do so with my old halyard.

Amazingly, the new halyard I just installed didn't seem to rotate the one time I have raised the sail with it. It does seem to have a slicker surface, so perhaps that's what it takes. I have Andersen winches which have a smoother surface relative to sliding vertically.

Other than coiling the tail in figure eights, all I do is shake out the twists in the several feet of halyard behind the winch as I take the wraps off. Also, as I lower the sail, I try to feel if there are any twists that I need to reverse as I pay out. Oh, and I try to hoist as much of the sail as I can by hand without using the winch.

Originally Posted by doublewide

We have the same setup, have had the same problem with twists, and here is the reason for the twists, along with the solution.

To raise the main, you put four turns on the winch and hoist away. Then you close the rope clutch and take the halyard off the winch. If you think about the twist-status of the part of the halyard between the clutch and the bitter end, you know that the sum of all twists in that segment is zero (the bitter end didn't rotate.) But the turns you put around the winch put four clockwise twists into the part of the halyard that is on the winch and four counterclockwise twists in the part of the halyard right next to the winch. Those four clockwise twists stay on the winch as you hoist, and the counterclockwise twists stay in the part of the halyard where you introduced them. When you take the halyard off the winch, the clockwise twists are now in a different part of the halyard than they were when you started. The twists are no longer near the complimentary counter-clockwise twists, but rather are a distance about twice the height of your mast away from where they started. If you now lower the main, you transfer the clockwise twists through the clutch and up into your 2 to 1 tackle, and when the sail is fully down you haven't yet reached the part of the halyard that contains the counter-clockwise twists. The right and left twists never get a chance to cancel each other, because you keep separating them as you hoist. Over time you add more and more twist to the 2 to 1 tackle and probably unconsciously pass the left-over counter-clockwise twists off the bitter end.
The solution: after you hoist, and before you stow the halyard, pass all induced twist back down the line from the winch toward the bitter end until the twists cancel each other. Just swing the line like a jump rope, advancing the right twist toward the bitter end until it cancels the left twist way back where you started.
I hope that makes sense.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Stumble

You have never owned a slinky? Fixing the block will just hide the problem a little bit longer unto the line twists over itself and herniates.

When you say a little bit longer.... people I know have had 2:1 halyards for 10+ years with no twisting problems, simply by having the headboard block fixed so it cant spin.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

When you say a little bit longer.... people I know have had 2:1 halyards for 10+ years with no twisting problems, simply by having the headboard block fixed so it cant spin.

That describes my experience!

[GILow]

Originally Posted by charliehows

I must be gettin' old - now you mention a winch and people just assume its electric - WTF?

Scary hey? I didn't think you were talking electric because we have the same setup you describe. It is very, very powerful but a bit lethal if you release the winch brake without removing the handle first.


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[DotDun]

Originally Posted by charliehows

not a fan of 2:1 halyards since my mizzen halyard jammed in the block trying to drop the sail under the bloody sydney harbour bridge (ie; busiest part of the harbour). Its a small sail and there was no reason to have any tackle on it. the mainsail has a s/s cable and deck winch which i think is a better solution to any problems with loading. KISS is the best policy.

Originally Posted by charliehows

I must be gettin' old - now you mention a winch and people just assume its electric - WTF?

Large sails require a 2:1 purchase, a winch alone won't handle it.

[model 10]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Large sails require a 2:1 purchase, a winch alone won't handle it.

And maybe even not so large sails. Aside from this silly twisting thing, all the extra line is a pain. Especially in coiling or flaking the tail so it will run out without getting snarled.