2 to 1 Halyard

[CAELESTIS]

Well I am a 2:1 main halyard boat with an Antal block on the end. Twist is put in from the winch (electric). The line is Marlow D2 racing, unobtanium, neverbreakorstretch line. The Spinlock XX clutch was always slipping until I went 2:1 with carbon sails. The next step up was a line jammer used on VO70's. It is a LOT of halyard with the 2:1.

I use a figure eight pattern when coiling the halyard, and periodically flip the unloaded line in the opposite direction. Once in a while I will run the line to the masthead and let the twists unwind on their own.

These are good problems to have.

[thunderhoof]

I have found that some lines have a twist in the core so that it will twist when loaded, no matter how you coil it. There is a type of line called Paralay that has no twist in the core. However, 12 strand line like Amsteel is probably the best. It is very strong so you can use a smaller diameter line. I suggest that you do an end to end splice to ordinary double braid line (at least 9 mm/ 3/8 in.) so that the double braid section catches the cleat / stopper when the sail is hoisted. The other trick is to take the cover from some double braid and slide it over the tail of the halyard. The cover needs to be tapered so it smoothly enters the 12 strand line.

[charliehows]

Originally Posted by GILow

Scary hey? I didn't think you were talking electric because we have the same setup you describe. It is very, very powerful but a bit lethal if you release the winch brake without removing the handle first.

yep, ive got scars on my shins to prove it...

[charliehows]

Originally Posted by DotDun

Large sails require a 2:1 purchase, a winch alone won't handle it.

surprised to hear a statement like that on a sailing forum - I'd have thought manual sheet winches would be so familiar to people by now that this kind of basic error wouldnt need examination.

[Rduncanson]

I too had the same problem with a 2to1 halyard. I have a 68 ft. Mast with a 900 square foot main on a 48 electric winch. Even with doing everything to untwist the resistance was so high the winch would barely raise it. I went to a 1 part halyard which reduced the resistance to a point that the winch raises it ok, not perfect but ok

[ggray]

2 part halyard works great for me. Worse thing about it is having to go up the mast to remove/replace it.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by vmattiola

My vote is here too. I've had this problem on charter & delivery cats a dozen times. Even if you coil perfectly with zero twist, the winch (particularly if it's a power winch) will ALWAYS introduce twist into the line. If the line is twisting and staying twisted, it's because it can never spin out at the end because it's affixed to the mast head (probably with a bowline or splice).

Think about when you coil a line by hand, you don't start with the bitter end right? Because you need the twists to spin out the bitter end. Same principle with the 2:1 halyard. If you bitter end (at the masthead) can spin, then no twist should ever form.

Granted, you're going to lost about 3 or 4 inches of sail raising clearance at the masthead, but I don't think that's a huge deal.

Summary: LOCK the sail-head block in place, put a swivel at the masthead where the halyard terminates and is usually tied in place. That's what I've done.

Can you tell us what swivel you use at the masthead? Thx

[caradow]

I use a Tylaska swivel on the deadend attached to mast on my 2:1 for my screecher.
I also am using a spectra halyard.
Thought that would take care of the problem but it did not but cannot understand why.
If there are twists in the line then theoretically they should be negated by the swivel?
Don't drop it very often but when I do very hard to drop or get it back up because of the twists!
Also have a 2:1 on my mainsail with a fixed headboard and again a Tylaska swivel deadended to mast. Have been using this for years without the same problem as the screecher halyard.
Can someone explain why?

[AndyBerry]

Originally Posted by CookiesnTequila

Can you tell us what swivel you use at the masthead? Thx

I zip tied the head block so it couldn't swivel and that helped tremendously. Still work twists out of halyard regularly. What swivel are you using at the head?

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by caradow

I use a Tylaska swivel on the deadend attached to mast on my 2:1 for my screecher.
I also am using a spectra halyard.
Thought that would take care of the problem but it did not but cannot understand why.
If there are twists in the line then theoretically they should be negated by the swivel?
Don't drop it very often but when I do very hard to drop or get it back up because of the twists!
Also have a 2:1 on my mainsail with a fixed headboard and again a Tylaska swivel deadended to mast. Have been using this for years without the same problem as the screecher halyard.
Can someone explain why?

I'm curious why you use a purchase on a screecher? How heavy cloth is it? I thought screechers were lightweight like my geneker. ...

[caradow]

The boat was rigged with 2:1 when purchased.
A friend and crew member who also owns a sail loft made it for me for the purpose of sailing in lighter airs. We use an asym on a sprit off wind otherwise the screecher is up in anything below 15 TWS. We sail as much as possible and limit our motoring.
I have had it now for 4 years and very happy with the sail but it is very heavy and very large. Wanted it to withstand 15 TWS in lumpy seas with wind forward of beam but usually go to jib at that point. Don't recall exact wt and sq ft. but can find out if you are that interested..
Wish I could do away with the 2:! but think I need it however do have a power winch.....might try re-rigging it.
What weight is yours?

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by caradow

The boat was rigged with 2:1 when purchased.
A friend and crew member who also owns a sail loft made it for me for the purpose of sailing in lighter airs. We use an asym on a sprit off wind otherwise the screecher is up in anything below 15 TWS. We sail as much as possible and limit our motoring.
I have had it now for 4 years and very happy with the sail but it is very heavy and very large. Wanted it to withstand 15 TWS in lumpy seas with wind forward of beam but usually go to jib at that point. Don't recall exact wt and sq ft. but can find out if you are that interested..
Wish I could do away with the 2:! but think I need it however do have a power winch.....might try re-rigging it.
What weight is yours?

My geneker is ~1200 sq ft. (I think). It does not have any UV protection and is pretty lightweight (although I run it to 15kts @ 70-80 off). I handle it alone when pulling it from a locker to on-deck. It includes a soft furler, which I believe is a good piece of weight. It's got a single halyard and I pull it by hand about 2/3 and wench it the rest of the way with zero problems.

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by caradow

I use a Tylaska swivel on the deadend attached to mast on my 2:1 for my screecher.
I also am using a spectra halyard.
Thought that would take care of the problem but it did not but cannot understand why.
If there are twists in the line then theoretically they should be negated by the swivel?
Don't drop it very often but when I do very hard to drop or get it back up because of the twists!
Also have a 2:1 on my mainsail with a fixed headboard and again a Tylaska swivel deadended to mast. Have been using this for years without the same problem as the screecher halyard.
Can someone explain why?

The only thing I can think of is the halyard core has parted from the outer braid. If that happens you will never be able to untwist no matter what you do. Time to replace the halyard.

Interesting to hear that you are not having that problem with the main, which should be worse because unless you are meticulous at shaking out the twist every time you raise the main (before you lower it), you should have worse twist. I think I will try one!!

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by Rduncanson

I too had the same problem with a 2to1 halyard. I have a 68 ft. Mast with a 900 square foot main on a 48 electric winch. Even with doing everything to untwist the resistance was so high the winch would barely raise it. I went to a 1 part halyard which reduced the resistance to a point that the winch raises it ok, not perfect but ok

Are you not worried that that puts too much load on the sheave? A 2:1 transfers half the load to the masthead....

[CookiesnTequila]

Originally Posted by doublewide

We have the same setup, have had the same problem with twists, and here is the reason for the twists, along with the solution.

To raise the main, you put four turns on the winch and hoist away. Then you close the rope clutch and take the halyard off the winch. If you think about the twist-status of the part of the halyard between the clutch and the bitter end, you know that the sum of all twists in that segment is zero (the bitter end didn't rotate.) But the turns you put around the winch put four clockwise twists into the part of the halyard that is on the winch and four counterclockwise twists in the part of the halyard right next to the winch. Those four clockwise twists stay on the winch as you hoist, and the counterclockwise twists stay in the part of the halyard where you introduced them. When you take the halyard off the winch, the clockwise twists are now in a different part of the halyard than they were when you started. The twists are no longer near the complimentary counter-clockwise twists, but rather are a distance about twice the height of your mast away from where they started. If you now lower the main, you transfer the clockwise twists through the clutch and up into your 2 to 1 tackle, and when the sail is fully down you haven't yet reached the part of the halyard that contains the counter-clockwise twists. The right and left twists never get a chance to cancel each other, because you keep separating them as you hoist. Over time you add more and more twist to the 2 to 1 tackle and probably unconsciously pass the left-over counter-clockwise twists off the bitter end.
The solution: after you hoist, and before you stow the halyard, pass all induced twist back down the line from the winch toward the bitter end until the twists cancel each other. Just swing the line like a jump rope, advancing the right twist toward the bitter end until it cancels the left twist way back where you started.
I hope that makes sense.

This is the best explanation, and the correct answer. I could not get my head around the twist moving along the winch. Makes perfect sense now!! Thanks.

My problem is our Dyneema (no idea what brand) halyard and comes off the winch incredibly stiff, which makes it very difficult to shake out or flake. But because it is stiff it piles itself nicely in a tight coil on our cockpit floor, which is where I have been leaving it untouched until I lower the main. It then just reverses direction, usually lowering perfectly. But now I see that this approach probably still moves most if not all the twist up the halyard!

Does anyone have experience with Dyneema line that stays supple after being loaded up, or does it all stiffen? My P dimension is 19 meters (65'), it's a heavy mainsail!

Cheers