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Old 12-10-2017, 12:26   #16
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

You have a traveler for your headsail? In any event, the total load on the traveler will not change...
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Old 12-10-2017, 12:29   #17
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

If you can't afford new winches look at used ones. Good winches are often replaced because the owner wants self tailers, or just someone upsizing theirs. High quality winches last a very long time - like forever if properly maintained.

PS. I have 32 year old self tailers on my boat and they work great.
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Old 12-10-2017, 14:41   #18
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

The sail on a cat doesn't unload because cats don't heel as do monohulls. So cat winch sizes need to be larger than for the same sail area used on a monohull. Even so, many cats are grossly underwinched.
Your 2:1 suggestion is inherently unsafe: if something goes wrong and you have to go clear it, that two block system could be lethal. Imho, that's a no no.
If you take $$$ out of the equation, the right way is to fit larger winches - much larger winches: as you say, very expensive.
However, I've a couple of suggestions, one free ... consider buying longer winch handles, which can come double handled.
The free one? Which IMO works better better than longer winch handles: A hard luff with immediate fall off will momentarily reduce sheet pressure. It's a matter of timing. Get the timing right and you'll rarely have to repeat and there'll be no noticeable loss of speed.
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Old 12-10-2017, 14:49   #19
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2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

It is the extra line (both to pull in and increase tangles and snagging while coming around the mast), and the danger of the flying block that prevents it from being seen on bigger boats. In theory you could use ferrules that would reduce the head bangs damage, and only adding a little friction versus blocks, you might even be able to get a away with on for both sheets.


http://www.tylaska.com/index.php/rig...ware/ferrules/

In order to ensure that sheeting angle stays correct you would want the fixed end to be as closed as possible to the car (on the car?), otherwise you might actually increase loads when sheeting in tight.

Very often seen on smaller racing boats that have no winches. Some even do it one better by replacing the “fixed” end with a fine tune block and tackle system.
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Old 12-10-2017, 14:52   #20
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

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Originally Posted by kudi73 View Post
Yes, I agree that my winch is most likely too small, it's a setup that I inherited. As stated in a previous post, a bigger winch is currently out of my budget, the pain is also not strong enough to justify 2000++$ My Jeffcat is a strong and nice boat but it's a custom build and some of the solutions are not optimal, maybe the builder has also tried to safe money.

So it would be very unusual having a 2:1 purchase in the genoa sheet on a cat of this size? On small cats that's pretty standard, isn't it?
I have a 44' Cat and a 42.7m2 Genoa. I changed the 16MM sheet to a quality 14MM sheet and swapped out the Harken 46's for Pontos 46 Trimmers. The Pontos are quality 4 speed winches and way easier to use.
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Old 12-10-2017, 15:32   #21
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

Well, OP has said several times that bigger winches are not in the budget. Sensible man :-)!

I realize that on a cat, there is a helluva long way to run to get to the new lee sheet once you lay the helm down, but even so, mark the sheets as I have suggested and then practice, practice, practice till you get your timing right to catch the trim as you come through the eye of the wind. Much more satisfying and loads cheaper :-)!

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Old 12-10-2017, 15:43   #22
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

I've seen lots of self-tacking jibs with 2:1 purchase. The PDQ 32s came that way, and it was NOT because of winch size (many of the boats were converted to genoas with 3x they area and used the same winch without trouble).

Without a picture I may be missing something, but I'm not understanding why it is a big deal.

Certainly, with 2:1 the line will need to be reduced.

---

That said, I'm not a big fan of self-tacking jibs. Yes, there is one in my avitar, but I chaged that right away. The big problem is that the sheeting position is so far forward, reaching shape sucks.
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Old 12-10-2017, 18:20   #23
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

How about leather covers/boots over the floating jib sheet blocks? Attach them to the jib clew. Reduce sheet size to 10 mm to reduce weight. Make sure the "dead end" of the 2:1 lead can handle the shock of an accidental jibe.
Seriously, make sure the jib lead car and track can take the stress.
My real suggestion is to save your pennies for correctly sized winches.
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Old 12-10-2017, 21:42   #24
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

Such a small winch works better with a far Smaller line
10mm Dyneema
12mm high quality PE
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Old 13-10-2017, 05:08   #25
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

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Originally Posted by boatsmith View Post
sounds to me like a non-overlapping jib with but one sheet and a traveller. Going 2:1 on this set up is a fine solution.
It's actually slightly overlapping, never measured it but I'd say 105%. The blocks would bang on the mast when tacking.

Nice meeting you, remember I came across your company few years back when I was contemplating building a bigger Wharram. Unfortunately that never happened (I did build a Hitia 17 though). Always admired your builds! The Ariki 48 certainly the best built Wharram I've ever seen.
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Old 13-10-2017, 05:11   #26
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

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Originally Posted by Don C L View Post
Yep, I think I still have the scar. Once when I was very young and a little more foolish I tried this. I don’t recommend it.
Happy you are here to tell the tale though
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Old 13-10-2017, 05:34   #27
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

I mated on a Kurt Hughes charter cat that had a 2:1 genoa sheet, 36 foot boat with a blade.

One end of the end of the sheet was made fast to the port side of the genoa track, went through a block on the traveller car, went through a block on the clew of the blade, back to the traveler car to a stand up block at the end of the traveller track.

Ran my finger through the block on the clew once, as that boat wanted to have the jib backwinded by hand to tack in light air...
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Old 13-10-2017, 05:37   #28
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

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Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
By what criterion, precisely, do you judge your sheet loads to be "too high"?
It's mainly a subjective feeling. I have an engineering background, my gut tells me the loads are too high. I feel it requires too much effort to crank the winch. That said, the tracks, cars and blocks are old and need replacement, I will do that ASAP together with changing the sheet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Some of the strain taken by the sheet is vectored into the hull at each turning block, and the residual is taken radially by the winch. If your fittings haven't ripped out of the hull, then the sheet forces are clearly not "too high". She's like Custer's 'orse - she can take it :-)!
A previous skipper (really, not me ) managed to bend the starboard track, see attachment. Although I suspect that was mainly because the track is not properly mounted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrentePieds View Post
Another question entirely is whether YOU (and/or crew) are up to cranking the winch. If not, then you need bigger winches. That's why the big boys use "coffee grinders". Alternatively, luff 'er for a moment, harden up the sheet and fall off again. Mark you sheets with a whipping at the points where they enter the winch when correctly trimmed for being hard on the wind, then harden to there as you come through the eye of the wind, before the sail fills on the new tack. Just a question of timing, really. Provided, of course, you don't make the crew's life difficult with too many turning blocks and other bits and pieces that introduce unnecessary friction :-)

TP
That's actually one of the main reason for me considering this. I have often changing crew and many of them are eager to help with the sailing. I have no problem to handle the loads but for someone without experience it can be challenging. My better half wouldn't even touch the winch, too much load.
My fear is also a bit that when the hardware is operated close to its limit an over-eager crew could actually break something. Had a guy breaking a winch handle the other day when hoisting the main.
But I do understand that having changing crew is actually a strong argument against the 2:1 purchase because of the danger it creates at the bow.
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Old 13-10-2017, 05:39   #29
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
You have a traveler for your headsail? In any event, the total load on the traveler will not change...
Yes, and I do understand that. As the hardware is old I plan to change the traveler anyways, go from 32mm to 40mm.
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Old 13-10-2017, 05:41   #30
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Re: 2:1 purchase for genoa sheet

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Originally Posted by stormalong View Post
If you can't afford new winches look at used ones. Good winches are often replaced because the owner wants self tailers, or just someone upsizing theirs. High quality winches last a very long time - like forever if properly maintained.

PS. I have 32 year old self tailers on my boat and they work great.
Thanks for the tip! Mine are now 25 and still going strong. Except, not strong enough I will consider a second hand one. Although it's a bit of a logistic problem here in SEA, especially Indonesia
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