Yet another tragic loss?

[RidgeRunner]

Ok, admittedly there is some damage here, but most of the keels are still mostly attached.

Keep in mind the pic of Volvo team Vestas, and how fast they must have been going when they infamously "found" that reef.

[Cavalier]

Originally Posted by RidgeRunner

Yup.



...

That 4th photo of the fin keel run aground was a 36' sadler. If memory serves, it was during a race on a falling tide. It was refloated with little damage during the next high tide. Luckily the weather was calm...

Sent from mTalk

[CarlF]

Here's a video. This boat didn't pound itself to bits on the rocks. The hull appears relatively undamaged - it's just upside down. I expect an investigation will conclude that when it hit the rocks, the keel immediately snapped off allowing the boat to be rolled by the surf along the rocks. If the weight of a keel had kept the boat upright and pinned against the breakwater, the crew would likely have had a much better chance of surviving.

Of course this is just conjecture. An investigation will be needed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9WvE-Bk4fQ

[Polux]

Originally Posted by RidgeRunner

Ok, admittedly there is some damage here, but most of the keels are still mostly attached.

Keep in mind the pic of Volvo team Vestas, and how fast they must have been going when they infamously "found" that reef.

So? it depends on many factors. On those pictures were lost on the grounding and some of the boats cost 3 times more than a Bavaria:









I remember that recently a Steel Vand de Stadt lost the keel with tragic effects for the crew. It was not an old boat and the boat had been hard grounded violently before but the owners and the shipyard thought it was alright. The keel was lost later while sailing.

Each case it is a case and it has not necessarily to do with the boat building. Boats are not made to be pounded violently on rocks during a storm.

[Cavalier]

Much better detail over on SA, answering many questions:
» rimini | Sailing Anarchy

Interesting part:
"The boat had completed some refitting *at a boatyard at the *marina *days before. *... boatyard manager was supposed to ferry a sailboat somewhere along the coast, but he quickly changed his mind when the first gusts hit. He then called the skipper of the DAMAGED boat, which had already set sail..."
"..The crew then tried to raise a sail but a very steep 5 meter wave picked the boat and smashed it against the break water.."
"..the engine went out of service and the crew had no time to set sails so the boat grounded hard on the main harbour jetty, *close to the famous Rock Island bar, losing the keel and after few minutes was capsized and dismasted by the imposing waves. From the picture where the boat has still the mast, it seems that the crew deployed the staysail as ultimate attempt to avoid the impact..."

From reading the whole article, detailing this tragic loss of life, I cannot in all honesty believe that any similar sized vessel, be it fin keel or full keel, would have faired well being picked up by a 5m wave and dropped on to the rock-jetty. Either way, the boat would probably have ended up inverted and finally lost its mast. Life was lost due to the boat being rolled up onto the jetty, and the ultimate reason was the decision to set-sail in those conditions..

[robert sailor]

The newer high production boats are not built to take groundings. The general consensus on these newer boats is that any form of grounding requires a very careful inspection from a knowledgeable surveyor and even then because of the way they are built there could be damage that is not detectable without some high tech equipment being brought in. Generally keels are built for sailing loads and the boats hold up just fine but not for groundings however many of the better built boats ,especially stick built boats can be expected to take groundings without damage to the structure. I think the Bavaria provides very high value but like all high production boats built with liners damage can happen even from very light groundings much less an incident like this one. Many cruisers belive a decent cruising boat should be capable of groundings without the worry of losing their keel either during the grounding or months later. Most cruisers know that if your out long enough you'll probably go aground from time to time and it will likely happen in Timbucktwo where there are no professional to help you with high tech inspections.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

The newer high production boats are not built to take groundings. The general consensus on these newer boats is that any form of grounding requires a very careful inspection from a knowledgeable surveyor and even then because of the way they are built there could be damage that is not detectable without some high tech equipment being brought in. Generally keels are built for sailing loads and the boats hold up just fine but not for groundings however many of the better built boats ,especially stick built boats can be expected to take groundings without damage to the structure. ...

Do you include on those high production boats not built to take groundings the Steel Vand de Stadt? As you know one lost a keel after a previous grounding and after the damage inspected and the boat "repaired" and it was not an old boat.

[CarlF]

Expensive boats are not immune from poor engineering and construction. The 82 ft Oyster Polina Star III lost her keel while sailing in calm conditions. She rolled and sank in minutes.

ANOTHER MAJOR KEEL FAILURE: What Really Happened to Polina Star III?

I'm astonished that some posters think that keel integrity is a design choice to be weighed against other factors such as cost. Of course a keel will be damaged if thrown onto a rock jetty, but it is simply not acceptable for a keel to ever fall off as it causes an immediate capsize that will likely kill the crew. In the case of Cheeki Rafiki, the charter company owner is being tried on criminal manslaughter charges for that keel failure.

[Jim Cate]

Pollux, in the case of the steel Vde S, was the keel bolted on or integral to the hull?
Where did the failure occur, at the join or in the hull structure or??

RAther unusual for such a failure in a steel vessel, so if you have any details, please pass them on.

The idea that any FRP boat is likely to survive being thrown on her side onto a jetty is pretty far fetched. If one looks back at the Cabo San Lucas "disaster", quite a few FRP boats were destroyed when pushed up onto a soft sand beach. Several were not, one of which was an Olsen 40, a Santa Cruz built ULDB racer type. Not massive, but quite light... she was refloated and sailed away, while several "crab crusher full keel" types were totaled. Interesting...
Bernard's Joshua, a very heavy steel design, was also eventually refloated and with some effort, set sailing again.
Jim

[marcofailla]

that's what looks like a real tragedy...
https://youtu.be/TltuZzo1apY

the keel has been found nearby the jetty as a result of an obvious extreme impact
however the hull integrity in the keel zone, as seen in the video and pictures available, left me impressed of the "just right" engineering of a so critical structure. to my very unqualified opinion would have been much more comprehensible a significant part of hull and framing torn out and taken underwater with the keel instead of what seems a neat cut of keel bolts

[boatman61]

Jim.. I think Polux may be referring to the steel boat that lost its keel on a trip from Panama to Columbia.. couple in their 80's on board died as a result.. it was speculated upon here.
Pictures of the upturned floating hull appeared to show a clean break.. general conclusion seemed to be it was a side on blow that took it out rather than a bow on strike.. there were no reefs nearby and no distress call was put out.. whatever happened was fast and lethal.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Polux

Anyone with half a brain will look at the photo of the keelless yacht with rigging intact and realise that the keel did not fall off causing the yacht to end up on the rocks. Unfortunately there are far too many posters here who desperately want to believe that the keel fell off causing this tragedy

It looks pretty clear in that first photo that the yacht must have been thrown sideways onto the rock causing the keel to break off and the yacht rested in place. Whether a keel falls off a fin keel yacht when thrown onto rocks will be more about the force of the sea and angle the boat hits the rocks and less about the engineering and construction.

The MODS should change this title to remove the "keel failure" reference.

[snort]

I read the Italian version. They don't know for sure what the hey happened.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Since people often die when keels fall off, keels/hull joints should be engineered to take a lot of abuse. C.

What sort of keel do you have on your yacht?

Pete

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by CarlF

Here's a video. This boat didn't pound itself to bits on the rocks. The hull appears relatively undamaged - it's just upside down. I expect an investigation will conclude that when it hit the rocks, the keel immediately snapped off allowing the boat to be rolled by the surf along the rocks. If the weight of a keel had kept the boat upright and pinned against the breakwater, the crew would likely have had a much better chance of surviving.

Of course this is just conjecture. An investigation will be needed.

Or if the keel stayed on, maybe the yacht would have rolled onto the rocks crushing any crew who managed to hold on.