Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[Jim Cate]

But regarding what you say you are right, I don't like motorsailors neither I think they are the best option regarding bad weather.

Perhaps your view is influenced by your practice of only sailing in the high season. Here in Tassie, most folks sail year round, and virtually no one puts their boat on the hard for the winter; there are no facilities for doing so. Thus, boats that offer some degree of comfort and protection for sailing in cold, wet and windy conditions are popular. To me, this represents a cultural difference from your representation of European sailors who flock to the newest, fastest "sportif" vessels which you then describe as cruisers.

As for this American cruiser, we straddle the fence a bit. Our boat is, compared to many American cruising boats, relatively "sportif". It is our permanent home. We choose to retreat to warmer and kinder climes for winter rather than go the motor sailor pilot house route. To us, this is certainly cruising; your definition seems different, and is doubtless valid for you, as is your choice of vessels... again, a cultural difference, perhaps?

And in passing, I'll comment that we were feeling a bit miffed that we are stuck here in Strahan awaiting a replacement bower anchor, ours having been contributed to an underwater snag in the Gordon river last week. Had that not happened, we would likely have been in the neighborhood of the wx conditions quoted above... and that would not have been much fun.

Jim

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by StuM

I think the difference is probably similar to the difference between American and European taste in cars

Or houses. And furniture. Etc., etc.

Also, what many Europeans only realize once they travel widely in US that the States are almost as different in many aspects as the countries in Europe. And between the states there is considerable differences in preferences, etc. Some are the result of the geography/climate, others go back to the 1600s-1700s.

Speaking of cars as an example of different tastes. SAAB in their better days, did 90% of their US sales in New England/NY area, that segment of the auto market now taken over mostly by Subaru, both of which an average American living below Dixon Mason line may not see on his roads for months, if not rarer.

Similarly NY/NJ area has a taste for cheap looking light color "thin looking" brick veneer on their houses. Even their expensive recent McMansions to someone used to a better quality and more real look darker color and "thicker looking" brick veneer look like el cheapo play houses, although most likely they're probably built to the same standards otherwise.

And then again, in addition to "a Florida driver" there is such thing as "a Florida boat" - usually a Bayliner or a Sea Ray.

[Sandero]

This is an interesting thread but it's hard to draw conclusions. Europe is much older than the US and the aesthetic sensibility and lifestyles of North Americans are different from those of the European countries which themselves show a great range... such as the difference between GB and Greece. And the countries have different sailing / maritime histories... and then of course there is leisure time and recreation... again marked difference between Americans and Europeans. When it comes to manufactured designs... the consumer usually has to buy what is available and so develops patterns and habits and preferences. Factor in economic class, local climates and it all becomes exceedingly complex. The add in that many products are internationally available but usually this adds costs to them.

Are there trends which emerge from all these factors reflected in recreational boats? Probably yes... But what is the take away? Who cares? Each individual will make their choice armed with their tool box...experience, funds, climate, sailing grounds, use, what's on the local market and so on. And let's not ignore the navel architects and their history, education along with the same for the builders.

You can see differences in UK architecture, Italian, French, Spanish and so on... Modernism has blurred cultural lines.. because it has for the most part dispensed with the tell tale ornamentation we use to identify style. Naval architecture usually dispenses with ornamentation... especially in the modern sailboat. Ornamentation is seen as an unnecessary and a nostalgic throwback. You don't see iPhones with Renaissance detailing now do you?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by StuM

I think the difference is probably similar to the difference between American and European taste in cars

Than you find that there is a difference but I believe that most Americans buy American (new) cars while regarding sailboats most Americans buy European designed (new) sailboats.

Conservatism apart I do believe that there is at least a small difference in what regards a tendency regarding Europeans to like more sportive and better sailing sailboats.

You can find that tendency on the cars too regarding for instance automatic gearbox that the Americans seem to love and the Europeans seem to hate and that difference in taste has to do with the bigger control a manual gearbox can provide over the car, versus a more lazy and comfortable way to drive.

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by Polux

Than you find that there is a difference but I believe that most Americans buy American (new) cars while regarding sailboats most Americans buy European designed (new) sailboats.

Conservatism apart I do believe that there is at least a small difference in what regards a tendency regarding Europeans to like more sportive and better sailing sailboats.

You can find that tendency on the cars too regarding for instance automatic gearbox that the Americans seem to love and the Europeans seem to hate and that difference in taste has to do with the bigger control a manual gearbox can provide over the car, versus a more lazy and comfortable way to drive.

With all due respect... rubbish...

There are some racy looking designs such as the very popular J boats.

Manual transmissions are more an inconvenience than a control issue. Anyone who drives "normally" has come to accept this. Even the automatic have as many as 7 gears and the ability to control the shifting by the driver.

I am an American and I have a 1985 Dutch boat and have never owned an American car... I've had 6 Audis, an Acura, 4 BMWs, a Honda, a VW and an old TR4 when I was in college. I don't understand the American obsession with pick ups and SUVs... but all the car makers are making SUVs.

People by domestic products frequently because of price point and shipping and duties make a difference.

[Hudson Force]

Originally Posted by Polux

Than you find that there is a difference but I believe that most Americans buy American (new) cars while regarding sailboats most Americans buy European designed (new) sailboats.

Conservatism apart I do believe that there is at least a small difference in what regards a tendency regarding Europeans to like more sportive and better sailing sailboats.

You can find that tendency on the cars too regarding for instance automatic gearbox that the Americans seem to love and the Europeans seem to hate and that difference in taste has to do with the bigger control a manual gearbox can provide over the car, versus a more lazy and comfortable way to drive.

I'm far less able to make these broad conclusions without numerical data. You say, "....most Americans buy European designed (new) sailboats." and yet, where I am in Florida, I see mostly new Catalinas and Hunters. I'd be more influenced by real numbers.

There's also the introduction of the terms "love, hate and lazy" used to described European vs. American behaviors which also introduce bias without any well defined numerical information.

You may be correct in all respects, but it's difficult to gain support for concepts built without concrete data.

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I'm far less able to make these broad conclusions without numerical data. You say, "....most Americans buy European designed (new) sailboats." and yet, where I am in Florida, I see mostly new Catalinas and Hunters. I'd be more influenced by real numbers.

There's also the introduction of the terms "love, hate and lazy" used to described European vs. American behaviors which also introduce bias without any well defined numerical information.

You may be correct in all respects, but it's difficult to gain support for concepts built without concrete data.

Because with all due respect Polux is just presenting unscientific anecdotal... biased views based on nothing but his own projections and "experience".

There are cultural differences because of multiple factors and you cannot erase or control for them. This is reflected in market choices and demand. Boo Hoo.

[robert sailor]

I wouldn't be so quick to call rubbish but I also don't agree with all of Polux's views. Generally speaking Americans are a conservative nation and that reflects in their buying choices. There is a reason the Ford F 150 is the biggest selling half ton in the world and there is also a reason companies like Catalina could produce the same boat for so many years. You don't see Americans taking showers off their sterns but Europeans think nothing of nudity. So when I reflect I think Americans are probably one of the most conservative Western nations in the world. All that said they are also leaders in usable inventions, little stuff like the light bulb, the aircraft and the internet. They are also business leaders to the extreme and individually have high net worth. They also have the largest economy in the world although China is nipping at the door, so ya I think Americans are conservative.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Sandero

Unfortunately this thread has not identified the cultural differences which reflect in the design of sailboats in NA and Europe.

Because ... "It is difficult to find a black cat in a dark room, especially when there is no cat".

;-)

b.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Perhaps your view is influenced by your practice of only sailing in the high season. Here in Tassie, most folks sail year round, and virtually no one puts their boat on the hard for the winter; there are no facilities for doing so. Thus, boats that offer some degree of comfort and protection for sailing in cold, wet and windy conditions are popular. To me, this represents a cultural difference from your representation of European sailors who flock to the newest, fastest "sportif" vessels which you then describe as cruisers.

As for this American cruiser, we straddle the fence a bit. Our boat is, compared to many American cruising boats, relatively "sportif". It is our permanent home. We choose to retreat to warmer and kinder climes for winter rather than go the motor sailor pilot house route. To us, this is certainly cruising; your definition seems different, and is doubtless valid for you, as is your choice of vessels... again, a cultural difference, perhaps?
...
Jim

Jim I know enough about boat design to know about the different boat options and that is not directly related with what I do for a cruising.

A motors sailor is something that has almost disappeared in what concerns European contemporary boat design options even in what regards voyage sailboats pointed to sailing in difficult weather conditions.



A motor sailor is basically a motor boat with auxiliary sails, a boat that will motor most of the time. They don't have the stability of sailboat since they don't need it for sailing and that is the main reason a sailboat has different stability characteristics than a motor boat. That give to the sailboat a better final stability characteristics and a superior seaworthiness.

What you have on the market (designed recently) for the hard conditions you describe (out of season) are sailboats (with sailboat stability characteristics) that sail well, have the possibility to be sailed from the interior and have also a relatively powerful engine, that is a characteristic they share with many other types of sailboats, but they are not certainly motorboats with an auxiliary sails neither their builders or sailors would call them motorsailors.

Old motor sailors like the old Nauticat or the Fisher from Northshore (pictures above) are designs from the past. What you have now for the conditions you describe are sailboats like these:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxPZZd24-lk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub22bhf3TYo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efWUeH8pPn8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkwBY-CGHcA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqonNcACzDQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XV1wFqRc1yw

There are much more but I guess it is enough to give you an idea. There are also smaller ones, even if in smaller number because people that want to live in a boat and sailed all year don't want small boats so the small ones are hard to sell. One of the more interesting among those is the Soler 35. Look in my blog (use the search engine). A good price and a very interesting boat but I doubt there is a market for it.

The only true modern motorsailor I know off is the Nordhvan 56, an American design:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgqFRkrRo50

But the design seems not to have find a market, not interesting to motorboaters, the traditional Nordhavn clientele, neither to sailboat sailors.

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Sandero

With all due respect... rubbish...

There are some racy looking designs such as the very popular J boats.

Manual transmissions are more an inconvenience than a control issue. Anyone who drives "normally" has come to accept this. Even the automatic have as many as 7 gears and the ability to control the shifting by the driver.

But no control of the clutch... A no no for slippery conditions.

BR Teddy

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Polux

The only true modern motorsailor I know off is the Nordhvan 56, an American design:

But the design seems not to have find a market, not interesting to motorboaters, the traditional Nordhavn clientele, neither to sailboat sailors.

That's a ridiculous design, nothing to do with a motorsailor. At best a motorboat with a couple of steadying sails.
What makes a motorsailer is the ability to maintain hullspeed against the weather with engine, have ampple tankage and sail well, not being ugly so you have obviously misunderstood a bit

BR Teddy

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Sandero

... Naval architecture usually dispenses with ornamentation... especially in the modern sailboat. Ornamentation is seen as an unnecessary and a nostalgic throwback. You don't see iPhones with Renaissance detailing now do you?

Yes you have that right. The great reunification in what regards taste had happened after the 30's with bigger influence after the 70's and it has to do with modern art. Modern art by definition is Universal and among the several currents of modern art functionalism is the one that has a greater impact in highly functional objects like boats that basically says that what works better is by definition beautiful.

It is also very true that Americans were influenced later by modernism (that was born in Europe) than Europeans (talking about common people) and that is important in what regards common taste differences, even today.

Regarding the influence of functionalism in Naval Architecture this presentation by Pascal Conq from Finot/Conq on an American Yacht symposium (2013) is very revealing:

Evolution of the architectural proportions:

Let's start with "beauty". What is "beauty" for a yacht, anyway ? Martin Francis told us : "Never forget the length, is it so important", and he's so right ! Bill Tripp showed us the black and white picture of a one hundred year old Herreshof racing design, long, thin, elegant. German Frers told us something I've always believed, too : "Beauty doesn't only come from the harmony of shapes and lines, but also from the pleasure the boat provides to her owner and crew".

We could also add this common expression : "Fast is beautiful !"Of course, nothing is this simple, it is all a question of proportions. Proportions is architecture.Like beauty, performance comes from a set of proportions. Like beauty, they evolve with time, and with time comes acceptance.

...Open : The open spirit comes from the open racing rules, it is an incentive to research in all directions. It allows to test new concepts, at a reduced scale in the Mini-Transat ( that we have won 5 times in the last 25 years), and at full scale in the Vendée Globe that we have won 4 times. Futhermore, an essential point is that the open spirit is very close to cruising, because the boats are sailed short- or singlehanded.

- Studies : The new tools, like the CFD and FEA numerical codes, are now really affordable, precise and usable.

- Power : The open spirit provides almost free righting moment. Using solutions like increased width, water ballasts and canting keels, we completely transform the proportions, the ratios and the shapes. We dramatically reduce heeling as well. Power then comes more from the Gz term (horizontal distance from center of gravity to center of buoyancy) than from the D term (displacement) in the righting moment formula Rm=D*Gz.

Reducing displacement allows one to reduce it even further, that's the whole point ! ...

This changes proportions, hull shapes, width, and all the ratios like sail area/displacement, power/displacement,...
Sailing yachts once were narrow, they will be wide, mark my words ! It works !

And by an amazing stroke of luck, when increasing the width, one gains inside volume, just what we want in a cruising boat...
The circle is now complete...

Some years ago most Americans that looked to a boat like still called it deprecatingly a sailing dish. Today the majority sees the beauty on the lines of hulls that work very well, being them narrow or beamier, specially because the beamier ones were extensively validated on the solo racing offshore sailing scene, and fast is beautiful:







Now the ones that call deprecatingly those boats as sailing dishes are looked in an amused way by the vast majority as having a conservative out dated and immutable taste.

For that chance in taste has contributed those hull forms and those functionality principles to have been used on most mass production boats, familiarizing new forms (that work better regarding the function they are designed to perform) and changing taste.

Truth is that Finot designed a cruising boat with this type of hull (for personal use and later for small scale production) 29 years ago. At the time the boat looked very strange, incredibly beamy and with an huge transom. Today it looks like a recent design, a thing that it is not.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by TeddyDiver

That's a ridiculous design, nothing to do with a motorsailor. At best a motorboat with a couple of steadying sails.
What makes a motorsailer is the ability to maintain hullspeed against the weather with engine, have ampple tankage and sail well, not being ugly so you have obviously misunderstood a bit

BR Teddy

Well, definitions are what they are but motor sailors contrary to sailboats are not designed to sail with the wind alone but to use the engine as propulsion complemented by the sails.

They are designed to motor sail and basically is what you say before you contradict yourself saying that they sail well. How can they sail well if they are designed to motorsail? What they do well is motorsail not sailing.

I have no doubt that the Nordhavn 56 will be perfectly able to maintain hullspeed against weather with the engine.

I don't like its design but then I don't like also the design of the Nauticat motorsailor (except the one of the 27 that because it is so tiny is cute and looks kike a toy) even if I don't dislike the Fischer due to its traditional heritage but I guess that is a question of personal taste. I am sure that some like the Nordhavn, starting from the ones that build it.

In doubt we can always resource to the dictionary regarding what is a Motorsailor:
"a motorboat with sailing equipment"
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/motor%20sailer

"In a motorsailer some compromises (such as a shallower keel) have been made to make the vessel more suitable for motoring, and consequently less suitable for sailing than a typical sailing vessel."
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/motorsailer


Personally I like this definition:

a "motor sailer

is a vessel that both steams and sails equally poorly"

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

I'm far less able to make these broad conclusions without numerical data. You say, "....most Americans buy European designed (new) sailboats." and yet, where I am in Florida, I see mostly new Catalinas and Hunters. I'd be more influenced by real numbers.
...
You may be correct in all respects, but it's difficult to gain support for concepts built without concrete data.

But there are numerical data. Hunter is making about 50 boats a year, Beneteau and Jeanneau America on the order of 500 boats each (or at least they were some few years ago). Catalina is very evasive about numbers and most the boats they make are small ones.

Comparing what is comparable and regarding boats over 30ft I don't think they are producing not even close to the number of just one of the European brands made in US. The total number of other brands made on the US is negligible, specially not that IP seems to have stopped production.

And I am not even considering imported boats and a lot of Bavarias are imported along with some Hanse, Dufour and other brands.