Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[boatman61]

The Jester Challenge 2016
The finish is at Praia de Vitoria, Terceira across a line between the lights on the north and south moles. Call marina on VHF Channel 9 (tbc)

THERE WILL NOT BE A DELAY TO THE START DUE TO BAD WEATHER AS THIS DENIES THE SKIPPERS THE RIGHT TO MAKE THEIR OWN DECISION: A CORE TENET OF THE JESTER CHALLENGE
The Jester Challenge is run on a ‘gentlemanly basis’ within the following guidelines:
•for sailing vessels between 20 and 30 feet (including multi-hulls)
•human power is the only acceptable alternative propulsion to that of the wind: rowing or clubhauling, for instance, are permissible
•single-handed to Newport
•one way
•stops allowed
•no time limit
•engines may be fitted but only used to charge batteries for equipment such as mobile telephones, steering and navigation systems. The sole exceptions to this, within the spirit of the Jester Challenge, would be the avoidance of an imminent ‘mayday’ situation; responding to a distress call from a fellow seafarer or when within the harbour limits of an intermediate port en route. If the use of an engine - or the acceptance of a powered tow from another vessel, whether a Jester Challenger or not - becomes necessary to meet, for instance, a personal time limit or, simply, to avoid a frustrating calm, then the details should be declared on arrival to fellow Jester Challengers. By common agreement - and using the co-ordinator as an arbitrator if there is no common agreement - the arrival order may then be amended.
•age of skipper to be over 18 years at the start
•no fees
•no inspections
•no regulations: skippers will be entirely responsible for the equipment they take, based on their own experience
•only hint of bureaucracy will be the signing of a form of indemnity accepting the skipper’s full duty of care for himself, his dependants and his fellow seafarers during his participation in the JC 2016.
•skippers should ensure that they have the correct visa for entry into the USA. Experience suggests that non-US citizens can not have too much lead time for obtaining this outside the United States
•entries (will be accepted up to twenty-four hours before the start



Recommendations:
•a 500 mile, non-stop voyage be made in the same vessel
•at least third party insurance be obtained



Prizes:

Not being a ‘race’ there is no official finishing order - there is of course a time of arrival - thus there are no prizes other than the personal satisfaction of having sailed fairly against peer vessels of a like construction, rig, size, skipper’s experience and so on; ie, a number of personal challenges within the whole.
John Margeson has kindly donated a Crown to be presented to the first skipper home who has, genuinely, built his own vessel.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by boatman61

...
Most boats are on average 30yrs old or more ...
Somewhat different from the heavily sponsored Minitransat boats your talking about..
Most are budgeted around £5,000-£10,000 as opposed to $15-$25million for Vendees and who knows what for the Mini 650's....
Also the average age of the competitors is the high 50's not the low 20's.
...

As usual you post hugely incorrect information. What is the trouble with you? If you don't know the subject you are talking about is very hard to make some small research before posting nonsense?

The price of new top IMOCA boat for the Vendee globe costs not $15 or 25 millions but 4 to 6 millions (4 times less than what you are talking about or 20 times less for most of the boats on the race) and an used good boat to do the race in very good conditions (2008, refit 2012) can cost as low as 500 000 euros. Older and less competitive boats can cost as low as 190 000 Euros, like the 1997 Grey Powder that is for sale (and that's the asking price). Most of the boats on a Vendee globe are not new boats.
Opinions Vary on Vendée Globe One-Design
 | Sailing World
DCNS Boat for sale
GREY POWER (Ex Fila) - Monohulls 56' and above - - Seahorse Raceboats Only Brokerage

Regarding the age of the sailors on the Vendee globe very few have less than 40 and some have more than 50 and regarding the average age on the minis being on the low 20's again you are way off. The average age on the last transat was 33 and the older guy had 56. Some old guys don't like to sail old slow boats

Regarding the price of most mini that do the mini transat the vast majority are on the production class and very few are new boats. An used mini racer in good condition can be bought for around 20/25 000 euros. If i remember well that one that circumnavigated costed 14 000 euros and you can find them on the market from 6000 euros, needing some work.

I really don't understand your point, I thought you are trying to say that old heavy boats like the ones on the Jester challenge are way more seaworthy strong and would have less breakage on an ocean crossing than very light modern racers of about the same size, racers that are paper thin and disposable, using your words. Well, reality shows otherwise.

You said: "race boats are built disposable .... designed for a specific purpose.. everything pared to the bone to keep them as light as possible.. some just last a few 'Serious' races.. some don't even manage that."

Very few of the over 70 mini racers that make a new transat are new boats and that means that most have already made 2 atlantic croissings and are making a third (beside many other ocean races).

But the vast majority have made a lot more than just two transats, being older boats with many transats and a big milleage on other offshore races.

Some have circumnavigated (after having being raced extensively) others besides the transats crossed the pacific racing and are ready for more. Disposable boats? Some don't last some serious races?

[barnakiel]

Top shelf racing boats should not be compared vis a vis modern mass churned out cruisers. About the only thing in common is the hard chine incorporated into the newer production and a square top main on some cats. Otherwise, we are comparing titanium and butter.

I think this thread's thread has been found unfounded long time ago - there are both light and heavy boats built on each side of the pool and we share similar tastes overall. If we are sailing slightly different boats in the US and in Europe it is only because we are sailing whatever is at hand.

b.

[Island Time O25]

About 6-7 years ago I was looking at mid 1980s Comar Comet 910 which I later learned was in popularity and numbers kind of European version of Catalina or some such. It was very traditional and very "American" looking both inside and out. Other than the name of the builder and the cabin length fixed port there was nothing which would betray her European build even though she was designed by Finot. And apparently she was built in numbers on the scale of your typical 30ft Catalina here in US. So to say that European designs were somehow always ahead of or markedly different from American ones does not reflect the reality.

PS The main reason I did not end up buying her was her 6ft draft which put me off as I had Florida and Bahamas to consider in my plans.

[robert sailor]

Facts are that none of these boats make good cruisers for anyone other than younger backpacker camper types as they are light weight go fast boats. There is no question that if I was much younger and was planning to put in a lot of sea miles I'd be looking at one of those Pogo 's as I do like speed and I am attracted to the performance side of sailing. But when you really load a boat up with all the gear and stores for voyaging you either need a mid displacement boat or a lighter but much larger one and as you get larger the costs grow with it not withstanding the tougher job sailing a much larger boat in strong winds and large seas. Not always so easy making these decisions.

[boatman61]

Polux... once again you try to Baffle with ********...
You pulled up the Jester Challenge comparison after talking about Whitbread boats.. in an effort to justify your argument.. and I countered.
My cost was based on official costing of the RTW 2001-2002 campaign which cost each of the teams between $15mil to $25million.. just for that one event.. and I've not followed the event since Peter Blake and Stienlager...

Most Jester competitors will have spent at most £10,000 for the event.. including the price of the boat...
Newbridge Corribee Mk2 for sale UK, Newbridge boats for sale, Newbridge used boat sales, Newbridge Sailing Yachts For Sale 'Anneli J', a 21 foot 4 Berth Corribee - Apollo Duck
Hurley 22 for sale UK, Hurley boats for sale, Hurley used boat sales, Hurley Sailing Yachts For Sale Hurley 22 - REDUCED £750 A geat little yacht - Apollo Duck
Achilles 24 for sale UK, Achilles boats for sale, Achilles used boat sales, Achilles Sailing Yachts For Sale Achilles 24 Fin Keel - Apollo Duck
Jaguar 27 Sailing Yachts for sale UK, used Jaguar Sailing Yachts, new Jaguar yacht sales, free photo ads - Apollo Duck

These are typical of the boats that enter the Jester.. along with Folksongs etc.

What started as a Thread on Yacht Choice by Cultural differences has been warped into Yacht Choice by Financial Differences.. just about every boat you have cut and pasted here is way beyond the budget of the majority of sailors.. even the great ones.. look at what Peter Blake and others chose as personal cruising boat.. as opposed to the ones made affordable by sponsorship logo's and multi-corporate backing..
Its fine posting artists impressions and stock pic's but really.. try and get a grip on reality with your arguments..

PS; I've been on a really big boat.. and that's all I have to say about that..
Going back to the real world.. this Brussels back office fantasy lands got to much

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

About 6-7 years ago I was looking at mid 1980s Comar Comet 910 which I later learned was in popularity and numbers kind of European version of Catalina or some such. It was very traditional and very "American" looking both inside and out. Other than the name of the builder and the cabin length fixed port there was nothing which would betray her European build even though she was designed by Finot. And apparently she was built in numbers on the scale of your typical 30ft Catalina here in US. So to say that European designs were somehow always ahead of or markedly different from American ones does not reflect the reality.

PS The main reason I did not end up buying her was her 6ft draft which put me off as I had Florida and Bahamas to consider in my plans.

Comar never has been a big builder comparable with Beneteau however that boat was a very popular one and 491 boats were made, nothing compared with the 6430 boats made by Catalina on the 30ft. Both boats were designed at about the same time but while the Catalina was in production for 32 years the Comet was in production "only" for 16 years.

I say only because even at that time 16 years is kind of a record for an European production boat. At the end of that time, with a MkII by the middle it was substituted by the more modern Comet 301 and Comet 333.

The Catalina 30 was designed by Franck Butler a great designer from the 60s and 70s that designed some remarkably modern boats and the Catalina 30 when it was built back in 1976 was a modern boat and a great design:


But while Catalina maintained that boat design till 2008, already in 1986 the Comet 333 was like this:

Regarding interiors the chances are that you are comparing the interior of a more recent Catalina 30 (since they were made till few years ago) with the interiors of an older Comet 30.

The original interiors of Catalina 30 (1978) were like this:

And the ones from the Comet 910 (1980) like this:

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Facts are that none of these boats make good cruisers for anyone other than younger backpacker camper types as they are light weight go fast boats. ....

You are wrong about this. Those boats are way more expensive than mass production boats and the ones that have and buy them, namely if they are not 30ft or less, are people that can afford them.

The Typical owner of those fast voyage boats are not kids but guys of your age with a difference that most of them had raced dinghies when they were young or had made regattas and this is the type of boat that they see fit for cruising. They don't dispense having fun while sailing.

I know personally some of those owners, one of them is a Belgian surgeon of about 60. On my blog if you search for Pogo 12.50 you will find an interesting long post by him about why he chose that boat and what are his cruising impressions. The Pogo 12.50 has the same hull as a racing class 40 (the brand make a cruising and racing version).

Another one (Swedish) had an Opium 39 and now has a RM, should be around 50 and another one that has a JPK 10.10 should be a bit younger, but over 40.

You should not think that if somebody don't share your tastes in boats and cruising than it is a backpacker and a young guy. All of those boats, with the exception of the 10.10, that is a more sportive one, are designed for long range cruising with comfort, that is not necessarily the one you would like but that satisfies owners that are rich enough for having something different if they want.

You live permanently in a boat and that is not only relatively rare among the ones that have cruising boats as also requires different storage space...or maybe not because I know an American guy that bought a Pogo 12.50 to live full time there, even if I had tried to talk him out of it (just because it would not be the boat I would have to do that). But of course not all people are the same.

A truly great backpacker cruiser is the one that I posted on the last post of my blog, one that will be relatively inexpensive. If I had 20 or even 30 years old it would be what I would have.

[robert sailor]

Yes we do live on our boat and that requires a large battery bank, large array of solar panels,room for dive tanks and all our dive gear and snorkel gear for another 6 people. Life raft,lots of spares,6 months of food,watermaker,hard dink and 15 hp motor,300 ft chain,back up anchors,spare sails,sewing machine, Series Drogue and lots of other cap. It all has to have a secure place in which to store everything. It also needs to have easy access to get at it as well so something like a Pogo is not going to cut it. We sailed for 2 years in the Mediterranean (and loved it) so we know how the typical
Med boat is set up, starting with a cheap light weight air floor dink with a 2 hp kicker. It's very different from the way we are set up so you can't take your personal experiences and overlay them on a long term voyage boat. By the way we still have a home so while we do live on the boat full time we have a backup for it as well.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by robert sailor

Yes we do live on our boat and that requires a large battery bank, large array of solar panels,room for dive tanks and all our dive gear and snorkel gear for another 6 people. Life raft,lots of spares,6 months of food,watermaker,hard dink and 15 hp motor,300 ft chain,back up anchors,spare sails,sewing machine, Series Drogue and lots of other cap. It all has to have a secure place in which to store everything. It also needs to have easy access to get at it as well so something like a Pogo is not going to cut it. We sailed for 2 years in the Mediterranean (and loved it) so we know how the typical
Med boat is set up, starting with a cheap light weight air floor dink with a 2 hp kicker. It's very different from the way we are set up so you can't take your personal experiences and overlay them on a long term voyage boat. By the way we still have a home so while we do live on the boat full time we have a backup for it as well.

No, it is the opposite but you seem to have some difficulty to understand it it (not any sneering intended). For living on a boat you want and "need" all that stuff. I have said to you that I know a guy that lives in a Pogo, so obviously he don't need neither wants that type of stuff and for what I understood he is a rich guy that likes to live in a spartan way.

You certainly know that are people that live in 36ft boats and are quite happy with the way they live.

You generalize your requirements as if they would be the requirements all
would need.

If I decided to live full time in a boat certainly I would not consider anything smaller than 55/60ft if a monohull, 45/50ft if a cat but I would not certainly spoil my sailing pleasure with a slow or heavy charged boat.

Have fun sailing and cruising is what I like, not living full time in a boat and therefore I choose to have a big house and a "small" 41ft boat to live 4 or 5 months a year. But that's me, other would prefer otherwise.

People are different regarding what makes them happy regarding living space. Some would need more space than you, some would need a lot less.

This is what seems to me as perfect to live aboard:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQE3NvQIQXI

Or this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui06R-MizfQ

The cat seems so more practical but the mono seems so more fun and sexy that the choice would be difficult

Anyway as the marina costs, maintenance costs and boat costs are out of my budget, for those or any that I could consider fit for living full time, I prefer to live in a house on the winter and to sail on the spring and summer. If I was rich enough to have a boat like that, well, I would give it a try.

[robert sailor]

You are spot on in that everyone has there own way of cruising, there own size and budget and no one else has the answer for what might suit them. I always speak to what suits us and I never would suggest that I speak for others so when I say the Pogo would be a bad choice, it's a bad choice for us. A 50-60 foot mono would be nice to live on but at our age I would not want to be dealing with a storm at sea in a boat that large. Easy peasy for normal sailing though. I can with some accuracy say that there are very few voyaging boats in the Mediterranean as most sailing is done there over the summer months and then the boats are usually stored on the hard throughout the winter so 95% of the boats are minimally equipped for long range sailing. For cruisers in the Med most of your choices make sense.

[Sandero]

This thread is not about the difference in European and US design sensibilities as far as yachts go.

I would think most sailors on this site have boats less than 50'... and do so for many reasons...

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

You are wrong about this. Those boats are way more expensive than mass production boats and the ones that have and buy them, namely if they are not 30ft or less, are people that can afford them.

The Typical owner of those fast voyage boats are not kids but guys of your age with a difference that most of them had raced dinghies when they were young or had made regattas and this is the type of boat that they see fit for cruising. They don't dispense having fun while sailing.

I know personally some of those owners, one of them is a Belgian surgeon of about 60. On my blog if you search for Pogo 12.50 you will find an interesting long post by him about why he chose that boat and what are his cruising impressions. The Pogo 12.50 has the same hull as a racing class 40 (the brand make a cruising and racing version).

Another one (Swedish) had an Opium 39 and now has a RM, should be around 50 and another one that has a JPK 10.10 should be a bit younger, but over 40.

You should not think that if somebody don't share your tastes in boats and cruising than it is a backpacker and a young guy. All of those boats, with the exception of the 10.10, that is a more sportive one, are designed for long range cruising with comfort, that is not necessarily the one you would like but that satisfies owners that are rich enough for having something different if they want.

You live permanently in a boat and that is not only relatively rare among the ones that have cruising boats as also requires different storage space...or maybe not because I know an American guy that bought a Pogo 12.50 to live full time there, even if I had tried to talk him out of it (just because it would not be the boat I would have to do that). But of course not all people are the same.

A truly great backpacker cruiser is the one that I posted on the last post of my blog, one that will be relatively inexpensive. If I had 20 or even 30 years old it would be what I would have.

I find this post to be very revealing. Biggest apparent cultural difference-apparently euro dudes don't cruise with women. I don't know many who would willingly cruise on any of those boats for any length of time. And cruising with kids? That's right out on these boats. Apparently not a family activity over there.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by minaret

I find this post to be very revealing. Biggest apparent cultural difference-apparently euro dudes don't cruise with women. I don't know many who would willingly cruise on any of those boats for any length of time. And cruising with kids? That's right out on these boats. Apparently not a family activity over there.

Who said that? On the case of the the Pogo and the Opium/RM, not only they cruise with the family as the kids are an extra reason for them to buy rewarding boats to sail. On at least one case they were important and participate on the choosing of the boat.

Kids that like to sail don't like to sail old slow boats, they like to have fun and if you are a father you know that nothing better that having our sons having fun with us sharing sailing pleasure on a boat they are interested in sailing and cruise, the family boat.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by Polux

Who said that? On the case of the the Pogo and the Opium/RM, not only they cruise with the family as the kids are an extra reason for them to buy rewarding boats to sail. On at least one case they were important and participate on the choosing of the boat.

Kids that like to sail don't like to sail old slow boats, they like to have fun and if you are a father you know that nothing better that having our sons having fun with us sharing sailing pleasure on a boat they are interested in sailing and cruise, the family boat.

Uh, what about our daughters? How is the average family of four going to cruise for any length of time on that sort of boat?

I really don't think you get that what you call a "voyage" boat, we just call a boat around here. Anyone with aspirations of going anywhere is faced with the likelihood of having to sail thousands of offshore miles on an inhospitable coast to get somewhere warmer. It's not like we have a Caribbean or Med on our doorstep. Everyone warms up on Alaska cruising, and then makes The Big Left Turn to Mexico and the South Pacific. Most take their wives and kids. Sometimes dogs too. The distances involved are long enough that for many it is not a seasonal thing, but a matter of a multi year sabbatical, or possibly more.