Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[minaret]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Hhhmmmmmmm...!!
Maybe that's been my problem.!!
Trying to fit in with you 'Honkies'...
Should have stuck to Dhows..

Ever read "Sons of Sindbad"?


Sons of Sindbad by Alan Villiers — Reviews, Discussion, Bookclubs, Lists



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Villiers




Sons of Sindbad: The Photographs: Alan Villiers: 9780954479251: Amazon.com: Books

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Hudson Force

It's pretty clear that this original post is an opinion with no support from the data on this forum or real world observation.

The most common sailboats in the US are fin keel boats such as Hunters, Catalinas and Beneteaus that are all made in the US.

The second most common sailboats in the US are those with modified keels having a cut-away forefoot and a space between the aft of the keel and a skeg mounted rudder.

The third most common design in the US is a modified full keel with a cut-away forefoot and the keel contiguous with the rudder like the Island Packets and my own Morgan.

Sailboats with a true full keel, full from the stem to the rudder are almost non-existant in the US. I still see an old Tahiti Ketch sometimes or, more often a Dutch designed full keel boat in the US, but they are rare.

The original premise in this post is not valid. It's pretty much like saying, Why do dog owners not eat green vegetables?

I'm not talking about the most common boats available... It's all about peoples attitudes on the forum and ONLY on this forum, whether its a poster who is looking for their first boat or the boats that people suggest to someone who is asking for suggestions.

[arsenelupiga]

it is pretty simple really:

type of boats are driven by cruising ground

in med where there is no wind monos that can sail 5 kn in 2 kn of wind and less than 3cm waves with 400m2 of sail are valued. Around east coat AUS boat that does well around 15 kn and reasonable seas is much better choice.

above 40 deg metal monos are preferred.

in QLD, Aus, where there is lots of reefs cats are in majority.

I purchased cat as I am into diving tropical waters, especially in PNG and Indonesia.

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by hoppy

It's all about peoples attitudes on the forum and ONLY on this forum

That's not what your OP said

But still ... where is the data? Since you're presenting this as fact, I assume you can back it up. Still waiting

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

That's not what your OP said

But still ... where is the data? Since you're presenting this as fact, I assume you can back it up. Still waiting

See my 2nd post

Originally Posted by hoppy

The question is based on anecdotal evidence gathered from being a reader here over the last 6.5 years

[Lizzy Belle]

Yes, I saw that.
Saying you gathered data or evidence and showing it are 2 different things ...

All you did was form an opinion, which you now present as fact.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle

Yes, I saw that.
Saying you gathered data or evidence and showing it are 2 different things ...

All you did was form an opinion, which you now present as fact.

I never presented it as a fact. I shared my opinion that I formed based on posts I've observed over the year and opened up a discussion.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by IdoraKeeper

I can see you now, turban, flowing robes....hollering in Arabic from the quarterdeck of your Dhow....barging up and down the great green greasy Limpopo....

Those were the days my friend..
We thought they'd never end..
We'd sail.. forever and a day...

[K_V_B]

There are in fact some interesting differences within Europe when it comes to yachts.

I read in four languages, and reading the Dutch, French and German sailing press can be quite interesting.

The Dutch magazine "Zeilen" has a lot of articles about cruisers, people going away for a few years to explore the world on their own keel. Every year they give an overview of those "Vertrekkers".

In the Netherlands the ultimate BWB comes from the drawing tables of Koopmans, or if you can afford it, Dijkstra.

in France the utlimate BWB is an Ovni, or if you have a bit more money, and Allures or Garcia...

But in both countries people go cruising in just anything, whatever it is that they have, and cruising in common production yachts is quite normal.

[boatman61]

Personally.. I could not care less..
Full, Short fin, Long fin, Centreboard, Catamaran, Trimaran matters not.. its a boat and I am able to adapt to the tools at hand..
Does a modern day carpenter cease to become a carpenter because you take away all his electric tools.. no.. he'll likely find a branch and fashion a stone to appropriate shape to create an Adze...
As long as it does the job you want.. which is to transport you from A to B with a decent chance of reaching the other side.. anything extra is just icing.. plus maybe some Hundreds n Thousands and a few Marzipan flowers..
Gonna have to give Proa's a shot one off these days..

[Polux]

Originally Posted by K_V_B

There are in fact some interesting differences within Europe when it comes to yachts.

I read in four languages, and reading the Dutch, French and German sailing press can be quite interesting.

The Dutch magazine "Zeilen" has a lot of articles about cruisers, people going away for a few years to explore the world on their own keel. Every year they give an overview of those "Vertrekkers".

In the Netherlands the ultimate BWB comes from the drawing tables of Koopmans, or if you can afford it, Dijkstra.

in France the utlimate BWB is an Ovni, or if you have a bit more money, and Allures or Garcia...

But in both countries people go cruising in just anything, whatever it is that they have, and cruising in common production yachts is quite normal.

Yes, but French and Dutch have something in common in what regards the ideal voyage boat: Aluminium. Those voyage boats from Dijkstra, Koopmans and also Dick Zall are mostly aluminum boats. Both countries also used for that type of boats mostly steel, 30 years ago.

Many years ago when I thought I would want a boat to sail extensively the one I chose as a basic design (to be modified) was a Dick Zall design, one that has the same characteristics of the French aluminum boats but are more powerful (and expensive to built) with the ballast on a swing or lifting keel.

There is a Dutch brand producing that type of Design from Dick Zall, the Atlantic. They would be expensive today at the price they cost 15 years ago. That gives an idea of the price
Atlantic Aluminium zeiljachten | home | Atlantic Yachts

[Polux]

Originally Posted by hoppy

I'm not talking about the most common boats available... It's all about peoples attitudes on the forum and ONLY on this forum, whether its a poster who is looking for their first boat or the boats that people suggest to someone who is asking for suggestions.

Regarding people on forum it is easy to understand the bias for older recipes and older types of boats. Around here, among the most frequent posters a guy with less than 50 years is probably a "kid" and many have well over 60.

Also most own old boats and many are live aboard and voyaged or have voyaged a lot. That increases the bias regarding boats suited for that type of function even if most of the posters that are looking for a boat don't want to do that, even if they want to cross oceans occasionally but rarely.

Also the new sailboat market (the ones that buy sailboats) including voyage boats, is much bigger in Europe than in the states and that makes that the options in the US are quite limited and tend to be old designs that still are being made after many years while in Europe the much superior demand translates itself on a much bigger competition and that end up on a much bigger design evolution with constant improvements over older models. With time that brings vastly different boats and concepts.

I would also like to point out what are almost excluded from this forum in what regards voyage or blue-water boats that are the boats that the younger guys that are sailors (meaning that they had done sailing as a sport) prefers, the ones that are directly derived from Open racing solo boats.

The mini transats, more than anything had proven the seaworthiness (not to mention speed potential) of that concept and today many brands (including aluminium boats) produce fast voyage boats along that basic concept. The more known are the RM and Pogo that almost all here would dismiss as bluewater boats, but also the aluminum Cigale the Futuna.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Those were the days my friend..
We thought they'd never end..
We'd sail.. forever and a day...

I don't know about the up and down the Limpopo, I was more imagining you on your dhow sailing off the islands of Mazanderan, Socortra, and the Promonteries of the Larger Equinox with the rays of the sun reflected from your hat in a more-than-oriental splendor.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

it is pretty simple really:

type of boats are driven by cruising ground

in med where there is no wind monos that can sail 5 kn in 2 kn of wind and less than 3cm waves with 400m2 of sail are valued. Around east coat AUS boat that does well around 15 kn and reasonable seas is much better choice.

above 40 deg metal monos are preferred.

in QLD, Aus, where there is lots of reefs cats are in majority.

I purchased cat as I am into diving tropical waters, especially in PNG and Indonesia.

The cruising grounds, type of predominant winds and draft needed to explore those grounds certainly are important but not so much in what regards voyage boats since these ones are by definition designed to sail in many different waters even if mostly on the trade winds.

Regarding cats, even if not so widely expanded, aluminum has being proposed as the ideal choice for that use and the number of those boats is slowly increasing. Off course that makes the voyage cats even more expensive, but certainly better boats regarding voyaging. Allumarine and Garcia makes them on a semi production basis.

[Sandero]

Polux.. is name is spelled - Zaal- and he was the designer for many Contest yachts.

This discussion is interesting by dare I say "naval gazing"... very hard to control for all the differences which come to care on buy choices.

LizzyBelle makes the point that there are national and even regional differences... likely driven by sea/sailing conditions.

And what about the rules like IOR which influenced boat design, building and choices? The influence of racing and the interest in it also influenced the market.

Yacht design like most things involves trade offs and compromises. No design can be optimized for all conditions and types of sailing... and with advances in technology we see new solutions to the old "problems". Yacht design is not static, but something which finds presumably better solution as the field advances.

But like architecture... not everyone is "psychologically" comfortable with modernist spaces / looks.... and so you see a lot of traditional looking architecture.. much of it poorly executed because the level of craft is hard to find.

You don't see people using horse and buggy either... an old solution, old technology to the problem of how to get from here to there.