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Old 01-03-2016, 12:42   #91
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

@ liam wald

Agree

Easy to add anyone to the IGNORE LIST
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Old 01-03-2016, 12:47   #92
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by TheThunderbird View Post
Easy to add anyone to the IGNORE LIST
And soooo useful on a forum where most people use the quote button instead of reply to post a comment
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Old 01-03-2016, 13:25   #93
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

The full keel argument versus fin keel even in America only makes sense in what regards the original premises of the OP (regarding the members of this forum) because in what regards reality the demand of full keels is so low that I don't know of any shipyard that still produces them.

Going a bit further than the fin keel, I would like to extend the scope of the inquiry, regarding that eventual difference in boat tastes, having data about this:

How many sailing Beneteaus and Jeanneaus were produced last year on the US factories?

How many Hunters?

How many Catalinas?

How many Bavarias were imported?

How many other European mass production European boats were imported? (Dufour, Hanse).

I am only interested in today situation regarding taste, so past situations, unless if from the last years are not meaningful.

Knowing these facts it would be easy to take an insight regarding if the American taste is really that different from the European and if today most Americans share the same basic taste on boats with Europeans, or not.

Catalina and Hunter have some differences in design and in fact they are not able to sell boats in Europe (meaningfully) so it would be interesting to know if those differences make them more popular to Americans and Canadians and if that is so, they would sell more than European designs in America.

If it is the opposite, well, it would be proven that the taste regarding boats between Americans and Europeans is not really different.

I think there is an industry book with all this data. Anybody as access to it?
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Old 01-03-2016, 13:32   #94
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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And soooo useful on a forum where most people use the quote button instead of reply to post a comment
I thought the quote button was to reply to a specific comment?

Maybe the reason few people reply to me is I am on most peoples ignore list?

This is a strange place...
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Old 01-03-2016, 13:33   #95
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Certainly the maneuverability of the fin keel wins hands down.
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Old 01-03-2016, 13:38   #96
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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How many Bavarias were imported?
Dutch sailors often snicker when (newer) Bavaria's are mentioned, considering them to be borrelboten - meaning they're owned by people who don't leave the marina and just use the cockpit as their waterfront terrace for having drinks.
Many consider them to be too cheaply built and not suitable for serious (offshore) sailing, despite the fact that they do and most make it back in one piece.

This is obviously not true for a) all Dutch sailors b) all Bav owners c) all Bavarias, but "Bavaria bashing" is a very common phenomenon on Dutch sailing forums.
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Old 01-03-2016, 13:39   #97
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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What if you have a fin keel and no wife?



First of all, "Europeans" include people from rich countries as well as relatively poor ones. People from all those countries are sailing the seven seas, but usually on very different boats (obviously).

In my experience*, the 'older generation' Dutch sailors usually prefer the full keel boats too for ocean sailing/cruising - but there aren't as many around as there are in the US. The 'younger generation' usually prefers the more modern fin keelers.


* : My Ohlson has a fin keel, and most sailors I've talked to over the years feel a full keel is the way to go when considering cruising. Not sure if it's just the fin keel or also the fact that very few people have ever even heard of Ohlson before and therefor can't think of any Ohlson doing some serious sailing.
It's funny you should use the Dutch as an example. This topic was first brought to my attention by a friend who is Dutch. He and his wife had been cruising for 7 years before reaching Newfoundland. We were contemplating our first fixed keel boat and I had asked him his thoughts.

He recommended the C and C ...older models of course. Nothing else from North America unless you wished to wallow about for days trying to reach your destination in a dark cave. His best advice to me was not to spend 90% of my time in a dark hole while docked or anchored ready for the once in a lifetime storm you don't need to be caught in while you could find comfort in a boat offering cockpit space and lots of light just as capable in the conditions you will be in.

He was on his fifth boat in almost 50 years and was at the time sailing a fin keel European boat with a great deal of comfort. He has since done the Horn twice as well as visiting Antarctica. I have since moved up to a Beneteau and have come to appreciate his advice.
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Old 01-03-2016, 13:40   #98
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by morven55 View Post
I thought the quote button was to reply to a specific comment?
Yes, and usually you delete everything but the sentense / alinea you're responing to. On this forum, however, quote seems to simply replace reply in many, many cases and even walls of text are quoted just to post "yes, me too" or something

I have therefor concluded, after collecting data from reading this forum, American culture = being too damn lazy to look for the correct button or delete the text that doesn't need to be included in the quote.
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Old 01-03-2016, 14:37   #99
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Dutch sailors often snicker when (newer) Bavaria's are mentioned, considering them to be borrelboten - meaning they're owned by people who don't leave the marina and just use the cockpit as their waterfront terrace for having drinks.
And they of course drink Bavaria on their Bavarias, proving that bad taste in beer and bad taste in boats go hand in hand...

(Where I'm from we call these "zuipschuiten" btw...)
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Old 01-03-2016, 14:52   #100
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Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post

I have therefor concluded, after collecting data from reading this forum, American culture = being too damn lazy to look for the correct button :

Your first mistake is to credit Americans with "culture". Everyone knows we have none.😉😉 But we know how to push your buttons.😇

It seems to me that you are very sensible in stating that yacht design is and should be specific for the intended use and choices are and should be specific to sailing area. Naval architects design boats for people (companies) who pay them to accomplish a design for their purpose. Analyzing design data, displacement, waterline length, hull and keel form all have their place. Fortunately, so does aesthetics have a place. And isn't it wonderful that those who prefer clean modern lines and prefab construction can choose boats that look the way they like boats to look. Isn't it also wonderful that people like me can choose boats with a springy sheer, balanced ends and a grace that reminds me of the beauty of sail.

Oh yes, I am the one American who prefers Bach over Jason Bieber.


S/V B'Shert
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Old 01-03-2016, 15:03   #101
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

I think that a few things that are probably true no matter what country that you are from are;
1) Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
2) There is just no accounting for taste.
3) Most people firmly believe that their choices are vastly superior in every way which by definition makes them quite superior as well.
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Old 01-03-2016, 15:29   #102
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lizzy Belle View Post
Yes, and usually you delete everything but the sentense / alinea you're responing to. On this forum, however, quote seems to simply replace reply in many, many cases and even walls of text are quoted just to post "yes, me too" or something

I have therefor concluded, after collecting data from reading this forum, American culture = being too damn lazy to look for the correct button or delete the text that doesn't need to be included in the quote.
Or in my case, I had no idea how it is done. It's not a matter of lazy...just another boorish unsophisticated American.

Oh, well...
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Old 01-03-2016, 15:37   #103
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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................
............ He recommended the C and C ...older models of course. Nothing else from North America unless you wished to wallow about for days trying to reach your destination in a dark cave. ........................
I had quite a laugh with this. Maybe there's a high and low latitude difference instead of just a Europe and America difference.

We have dark tinted polycarbonate portlights that we block with plants and colored glass. We have overhead hatches that we keep shaded. Spending our time with the higher incidence of sunlight in the Bahamas and Florida, compared to all of Europe, we are pleased to take refuge in the dark space below. We don't do much wallowing about, but we do take as long as four months to cruise from Florida to Maine (one way). We visit many ports and take days at an anchorage.

I could enjoy a different keel design, say with a deeper draft fin, but I'd need to darken the interior and give up about 50% of my favorite cruising areas.

We are always surprised when we cruise north and see people laying out on their decks in the sun or sailing without a cockpit covering bimini top.

The first boat that I bought for cruising and living aboard in 1971 had a fin keel, but my next boat was better suited for me. We respond to our different environments and adapt in different ways. I suppose these different behaviors become part of our culture. I'm not accepting any of these ideas proposing one behavior as more modern, advanced or enlightened.

I hope people continue to sail and cruise aboard the boats that suit them best!
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Old 01-03-2016, 16:12   #104
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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I had quite a laugh with this. Maybe there's a high and low latitude difference instead of just a Europe and America difference.

We have dark tinted polycarbonate portlights that we block with plants and colored glass. We have overhead hatches that we keep shaded. Spending our time with the higher incidence of sunlight in the Bahamas and Florida, compared to all of Europe, we are pleased to take refuge in the dark space below. We don't do much wallowing about, but we do take as long as four months to cruise from Florida to Maine (one way). We visit many ports and take days at an anchorage.

I could enjoy a different keel design, say with a deeper draft fin, but I'd need to darken the interior and give up about 50% of my favorite cruising areas.

We are always surprised when we cruise north and see people laying out on their decks in the sun or sailing without a cockpit covering bimini top.

The first boat that I bought for cruising and living aboard in 1971 had a fin keel, but my next boat was better suited for me. We respond to our different environments and adapt in different ways. I suppose these different behaviors become part of our culture. I'm not accepting any of these ideas proposing one behavior as more modern, advanced or enlightened.

I hope people continue to sail and cruise aboard the boats that suit them best!
I really enjoy reading your contributions...you seem to bring a sort of calm to some of these threads.

I've spent the last 20 years or so at Lat.48 and above and believe me even here a dark interior is welcome after being on deck. At least to me...my boat is basically flush deck with a very low doghouse and scuttle; there are no vertical ports except in the coaming of the main companionway. I put 8" fixed ports in both hatches and 6 deck prisms in the overhead of the doghouse, which along with the skylight provide a lot of light. The joinery is all old dark teak and the overhead is semi-gloss cream and, for mr at least it is perfect. I don't want to have to wear sunglasses below on a sunny day!

As for the rest of it, as long as your boat does what you ask of it, you simply learn to accept what works and what doesn't. My boat draws almost 7', but I just don't go where the anchorages are shallow, the forefoot is cutaway, but there is quite a bit of drag to the keel, so she tracks like an arrow.

For whatever it's worth...
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Old 01-03-2016, 16:29   #105
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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I don't want to have to wear sunglasses below on a sunny day!
So true. Thanks for pointing that out. I have one of those "dark caves" too but it sure works wonders up in the California Delta when it's 100F in the afternoon (although it cools to 60F at night, daily).

I am sure those folks cruising on different monos, as well as those on cats, have completely different experiences and reasons for their choices.

All valid, too.
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