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Old 01-03-2016, 04:58   #61
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

I've noticed another factor in this discussion that seems to have been overlooked. There appears to be a different language used by sailors by their age. Maybe it's a result of the change in the connotation of the term "full keel" over time.

I've noticed that posters on this thread have repeatedly referred to vessels like a Mason 44, Morgan 41 or an Alberg 30 as having a full keel. Older sailors, like myself, would call these "long keel" boats and recognize them as far different from a "full keel" boat.
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:32   #62
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Silly me, I've been referring to those boats as having a cut-away forefoot this whole time.
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:48   #63
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
Regarding people on forum it is easy to understand the bias for older recipes and older types of boats.

If you read polls here such as "How old is your boat" etc. it is clear that the membership here does not represent the general sailing community. I would dare say sailing magazines represent the sailing community much better than CF, and CF members make fun of them. If CF members truly represented the sailing community Island Packet wouldn't be closing would it?
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Old 01-03-2016, 05:55   #64
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Silly me, I've been referring to those boats as having a cut-away forefoot this whole time.
Well then, that either makes you an old guy like me or simply smart!
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Old 01-03-2016, 06:05   #65
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

I still think the OP has a point. The perfect monohull in the eyes of Americans is different (say Island Packet or Hinckley like) than for Europeans. I have seen famous Dutch builders like Contest hanging on to old, slow designs so it isn't as black and white as some present it.
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Old 01-03-2016, 06:13   #66
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by sailorboy1 View Post
If you read polls here such as "How old is your boat" etc. it is clear that the membership here does not represent the general sailing community. I would dare say sailing magazines represent the sailing community much better than CF, and CF members make fun of them. If CF members truly represented the sailing community Island Packet wouldn't be closing would it?
Wiser words have neva been spoked!

Funniest on this forum is the reticence to say: "Hey, I'm buying a $1.5M boat!"
Could you imagine the reaction? "You fool, buy a $10,000 and rebuild it over 25 years."


As for this thread in general... the subject seems to be Culture... but really its divinsions in a mono-culture: how many black, Asian, Middle Eastern cruisers are there??
So we are really just taking about Whities from different countries.


*** note to imbeciles who can't read. I didn't say there are "no" Black etc cruisers. Just not many, or a significan percentage.
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Old 01-03-2016, 06:22   #67
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

I'm partial to the designs that I was on and around as a kid, mostly 60's and 70's designs.
They are all over the place from fin keel racer/cruisers to long keel boats like an Alberg.
I find a lot of modern designs are lacking a certain grace, kind of square and industrial looking.
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Old 01-03-2016, 06:34   #68
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Performance cruisers in the US haven't had full keels since the 70's. I don't believe full keel offerings are the most popular in the US by a significant margin. The European view that Americans only like full keel boats usually comes out when someone from the western side of the Atlantic suggests that some "modern" European yachts are not all that ruggedly built. Rugged build and slow full keel are not synonymous but that doesn't stop some from linking them in an attempt to win an argument.

Europeans have a penchant for "modern" things not only in yachts but also in automobiles, interior design and many other areas. For example, credit cards with coded chips have been in Europe for years but are just now deploying in the US in greater numbers. My opinion as to why Europeans favor modern things has varied over the years. In most European cities the city center buildings are very old and look it but in most US cities the buildings are newer and more modern. So maybe Europeans just have a greater "hunger" for modern when they buy something.

I think very few new full keel yachts are built for the US market. The most desired world US cruising monohull yacht IMO would be one with a fin keel (encapsulated or strongly attached) with a strong skeg hung rudder. The mast should not be a wet noodle and the standing rigging should be well attached to the keel with no possibility of becoming detached. The steering gear should be able to handle a backward slide down a steep wave without breaking. The hull penetrations should be few and they should not disintegrate after 25 years. The crew, keel, rudder, engines and fuel system should survive a 360 roll. The motion in heavy seas would be smooth and not pounding into waves. The boat should be able to sail with reasonable speed in 10 knots of breeze but with a sail plan ready for 50. There are other characteristics but you get the idea.
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:07   #69
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Performance cruisers in the US haven't had full keels since the 70's. I don't believe full keel offerings are the most popular in the US by a significant margin. The European view that Americans only like full keel boats usually comes out when someone from the western side of the Atlantic suggests that some "modern" European yachts are not all that ruggedly built. Rugged build and slow full keel are not synonymous but that doesn't stop some from linking them in an attempt to win an argument.

Europeans have a penchant for "modern" things not only in yachts but also in automobiles, interior design and many other areas. For example, credit cards with coded chips have been in Europe for years but are just now deploying in the US in greater numbers. My opinion as to why Europeans favor modern things has varied over the years. In most European cities the city center buildings are very old and look it but in most US cities the buildings are newer and more modern. So maybe Europeans just have a greater "hunger" for modern when they buy something.

I think very few new full keel yachts are built for the US market. The most desired world US cruising monohull yacht IMO would be one with a fin keel (encapsulated or strongly attached) with a strong skeg hung rudder. The mast should not be a wet noodle and the standing rigging should be well attached to the keel with no possibility of becoming detached. The steering gear should be able to handle a backward slide down a steep wave without breaking. The hull penetrations should be few and they should not disintegrate after 25 years. The crew, keel, rudder, engines and fuel system should survive a 360 roll. The motion in heavy seas would be smooth and not pounding into waves. The boat should be able to sail with reasonable speed in 10 knots of breeze but with a sail plan ready for 50. There are other characteristics but you get the idea.
Some interesting thoughts about "traditionalism". It seems to make little sense to build buildings as they were built before the 20th century. Building technology and systems has advanced. Ornament which is associated with classical styles has been discarded in response the "modernism"

The "yacht" is both a technical design and an aesthetic look. Technically design has advanced and given us the so called racer cruiser... But it also comes with a new "aesthetic"... modernism. You can't completely abandon components which make up the aesthetics... but almost everything is being re thought... such as flush decks, open transoms, all dual helms and so on... all evolving supposedly driven by functionality.

So the yacht "design" is in a state of flux evolving from traditional solutions to more advanced technologically driven ones.

Some cultures seem to embrace modern ism more than others in architecture and boats.
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:19   #70
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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above 40 deg metal monos are preferred.
You are aware that quite a bit of the Med is above 40 deg?
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:26   #71
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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There is a Dutch brand producing that type of Design from Dick Zall, the Atlantic. They would be expensive today at the price they cost 15 years ago. That gives an idea of the price
Atlantic Aluminium zeiljachten | home | Atlantic Yachts
I've been on one, and they are absolutely stunning. The level of craftsmanship is extraordinary. They are not cheap though.

Interestingly Dick Zaal has also designed quite a few traditional looking boats.
For example:

DICK ZAAL sailing yacht for sale | De Valk Yacht broker
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:32   #72
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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You are aware that quite a bit of the Med is above 40 deg?
Fact and personal opinion sometimes vary like no wind or waves in the Med..
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:33   #73
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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I still think the OP has a point. The perfect monohull in the eyes of Americans is different (say Island Packet or Hinckley like) than for Europeans. I have seen famous Dutch builders like Contest hanging on to old, slow designs so it isn't as black and white as some present it.

Well that's a generalization! I am an USian and have a Contest and she does 150nm a day offshore... she's not a rocket ship but the design in no slouch either. I imagine some of their designs are slow, but so are Hinkleys!

No accounting for taste and what influences it.
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:44   #74
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by Sandero View Post
Some interesting thoughts about "traditionalism". It seems to make little sense to build buildings as they were built before the 20th century. Building technology and systems has advanced. Ornament which is associated with classical styles has been discarded in response the "modernism"

The "yacht" is both a technical design and an aesthetic look. Technically design has advanced and given us the so called racer cruiser... But it also comes with a new "aesthetic"... modernism. You can't completely abandon components which make up the aesthetics... but almost everything is being re thought... such as flush decks, open transoms, all dual helms and so on... all evolving supposedly driven by functionality.

So the yacht "design" is in a state of flux evolving from traditional solutions to more advanced technologically driven ones.

Some cultures seem to embrace modern ism more than others in architecture and boats.
To what you call "advanced" I would add "driven by desire or necessity to cut costs". Do you know the primary reason for the modern glass glad building (except the skyscraper) is that it's significantly cheaper to build glass on metal skeleton than any other way. And aesthetics come later, after the general public had grown accustomed by hook or crook to the reality that these glass houses are here to stay. IMO same with the boats. The reason that the older style is out is mostly the cost of keeping it alive. I bet you that the vast majority of CF members given a choice between being presented for free a brand new modern style Hunatebenebavalina and a newly built but IOR shape Swan or Hinckley of the same size will most likely chose the latter ones. If the new style is so beloved why would they do that? And why in real life with prices the way they are they are almost always choosing the former? Exactly - the price.
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Old 01-03-2016, 07:59   #75
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Fact and personal opinion sometimes vary like no wind or waves in the Med..
No... It's never windy in the Med.
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