Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[Lizzy Belle]

Originally Posted by Polux

Nice of you to agree

Thank you for disagreeing with what you wrote, even if you didn't notice

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Polux

I really don't understand your point.

That is because you switch arguments so often, that you lost track of them yourself, while expecting us to follow and even keep you on track

This started with you stating that in Europe more expensive sailboats were in use. I explained that by pointing out that this group of buyers in the US often select a different kind if boat while staying in that same price class.

[barnakiel]

Yeah. Those armchairs in HR boats ;-) Clearly aimed for the part of the society where people are so out of shape they start sliding off the sofa as soon as any swell rolls in.

Then again, those lovely armchairs go very well with another HR update - flush glass hatches on the deck. I hate to see those hatches marred with EUR 6.50 (purchased separately) nonslip tape as soon as one of the new boats strays into anything like sailing reality.

I think now only an anchor is missing. A small one, and preferably made of gold. So that I can swallow it without being taken for a sailing hypocrite.

b.

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by Polux

Can you explain what is your point regarding Americans preferring as motor yachts a bigger percentage of big "fishing boats" (also cigarette type of fast motor boats) and Europeans preferring smaller fishing boat yacht type and a bigger number of cruising yachts?

They are all yachts and they all count for statistics (as well as different type of sailboats) namely regarding the ones about the dimension of Yacht markets in Europe and America.

Maybe there is no much good fishing around Europe???

[lifeofreilly57]

I'm not sure how far off the original thread this is, but it seems the thread has wandered hither and yonder quite a bit.
I think part of the difference we see in the states is the lack of youth participation in the sailing pursuit, the fleets and yacht clubs I see out on the water these days is definitely sporting a graying population, with a much smaller portion of younger sailors getting into it. By younger I mean family aged sailors 25 to 45 year old age bracket, fewer still in the 20 to 30 year old range. Those in that age range who do get into boating seem to be going towards power boats. Don't know if it's lack of experience, lack of time or lack of interest or lack of funds.
This aging majority of sail enthusiasts would definitely have an effect on the types of boats preferred on this side of the pond. Over the years I've seen a huge difference in the ratio of power to sail boats in the marinas as well as the local yacht clubs, again with an aging membership. This has also affected the racing programs of most of the yacht clubs in this part of the country as we see less and less participation. The yacht club I belonged to for years had one of the largest racing fleets in the area and was able to put on quite a racing program, now their lucky of they have 5-7 boats out on any given race night, it's becoming more of a social club and has to so they can remain viable.
If the majority of sailboat buyers are in the same baby boom age group, it only goes to reason that their tastes in boats would not change much from the ones that attracted them 30-40 years ago. Whereas a younger sailor might have a different taste in design and be open to more modern styling cues.
Personally I like some of the modern designs I've seen coming along recently but I'm still not sold on the extremely angular and sparse interiors, many of those are really a way to reduce cost while giving the boat an open look and make them feel bigger than they are, more of a sales brochure feature. I do like the hull and deck layouts that are clean and crisp while being functional. I'm not a fan of the Old English Pub style of interior either, too dark and dismal for me, something in between with a balanced mix of warm wood tones and light surfaces with plenty of natural light to produce a warm space with plenty of light. Did I mention functionality both at sea and at anchor?
Does the European boating population have the same demographic shift in the sailing population we're seeing here in the states? I'd appreciate feedback from any of our friends on the other side of the pond.
Hows that? Did I ramble enough in this one?

[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

That is because you switch arguments so often, that you lost track of them yourself, while expecting us to follow and even keep you on track

This started with you stating that in Europe more expensive sailboats were in use. I explained that by pointing out that this group of buyers in the US often select a different kind if boat while staying in that same price class.

Don't understand what that was to do with selecting any particular type of boat or what that has to do with big game fishing boats or how I have exclude them of anything.

What I said based in statistics was this:

Originally Posted by Polux

....Being them pleasure cruisers or pleasure fishing boats they are all yachts and they are considered in all statistics, regarding the number of motor boats versus the number of sailboats on US (82% versus 2%) as well as on the global number of pleasure boats with less than 26ft and more than 26ft (93% versus 7%).

(Germany):
We can see that regarding the boat park contrary to what happens on US sailboats are a much bigger percentage: 39% compared with 2%. We can see also that among those sailboats bigger boats, over 25ft are 79% of the total while on US boats bigger than 26ft are only 7% of the total....

So what all this seems to show is that even if on the US seems to have a bigger percentage of boats for citizens the percentage of cruising boats and other yachts is much bigger in Europe.
....
I would say that the conclusion to take is that European middle class, businessmen and rich guys are much more into cruising and yachting than their American counterpart that prefers to spend their money in different hobbies and activities......

The difference of the average size of pleasure boats between US ad Germany (the only European country I have data) explains why there is a much bigger market in Europe regarding pleasure boats of some size (yachts) than on the US even if US have a bigger number of pleasure boats (smaller boats).

On the US only 7% of the pleasure boats (all types) are bigger than 26ft.

In Germany 75% of all pleasure boats (all types) have more than 25ft.

It has nothing to do with a preference for a particular type of boat, being it sailboat, motorboat (or big game fishing), it has to do with the average size of boats and therefore giving the huge difference in average size it seems clear to me that Europeans are much more in Yachting than Americans and that is what explains the huge difference of the size of the yacht markets between the two regions.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Sandero

Maybe there is no much good fishing around Europe???

Not the point anyway. Not much big fish on the med but that is not the case on the Atlantic at least on some coasts. There the percentage of fishing yachts is much bigger than on the Med.

[Jim Cate]

The difference of the average size of pleasure boats between US ad Germany (the only European country I have data) explains why there is a much bigger market in Europe regarding pleasure boats of some size (yachts) than on the US even if US have a bigger number of pleasure boats (smaller boats).

On the US only 7% of the pleasure boats (all types) are bigger than 26ft.

In Germany 75% of all pleasure boats (all types) have more than 25ft.

It has nothing to do with a preference for a particular type of boat, being it sailboat, motorboat (or big game fishing), it has to do with the average size of boats and therefore giving the huge difference in average size it seems clear to me that Europeans are much more in Yachting than Americans and that is what explains the huge difference of the size of the yacht markets between the two regions.

Pollux, you must consider that there is a huge number of boats in America that are not coastally located. We have a vast interior, riddled with rivers and lakes. These bodies of water are not suitable for large vessels whether sail or power, an are populated by smaller vessels in great number. I believe that this skews the numbers that you are quoting. If you were able to sift out only the boats with oceanic or Great Lake access, the size ratios would be very different.

Jim

[Polux]

Originally Posted by lifeofreilly57

...
Does the European boating population have the same demographic shift in the sailing population we're seeing here in the states? I'd appreciate feedback from any of our friends on the other side of the pond.
Hows that? Did I ramble enough in this one?

This has already been said not by me but by a quote from somebody from Jboats. Saying it again in another way:

What I think it is different is the number of youngsters doing serious racing (including dinghies), also offshore racing. That is not a new thing and particularly regarding solo racing it is something that come from several decades ago.

When those kids grow old and have money for a proper boat they don't want a slow old design but something that gives them pleasure sailing, while cruising.

I believe also that the several decades of solo racing and the boats that were used for that helped also to change the way modern sailboats were looked and contributed for a much faster acceptance of more lighter and modern designs adapted to faster sailing and cruising:

If 70 guys can cross solo the Atlantic speeding on 24ft very light boats, most of the time on autopilot, with a minimum of accidents, than a similar type of hull, but much bigger and slightly heavier (proportionally) is certainly a very safe boat, an easy boat to sail ( also on autopilot) and a fast one.

And from that reasoning and a known reality comes a much faster acceptance of the modern designs NAs (the same that designed those solo boats) were proposing as cruising boats, than if you knew nothing about all that racing scene (that is going on for decades).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxJjbqEhPgc

[lifeofreilly57]

Up until now I've owned mostly Racer/Cruisers, so I can definitely identify with that theory, I enjoyed the performance and sailing characteristics of those boats. The family cruiser we currently have is considered a performance cruiser, a heavyweight performance cruiser but still a performance cruiser, it definitely has more traditional looks above the water line though. Looking at it from above the waterline you'd think it was probably a full keel or modified full keel but it's basically a modified fin keel (longer) with a skeg hung rudder. I'm actually surprised at the performance it has upwind, but it's definitely happier and much faster off the wind while still stable in a following sea.
The racer cruisers I cruised did require more attention in a big blow but not so much that they were unsafe or hard to control, they just required a bit more finesse at the wheel in big following seas. The best quote I ever heard was from an ex round the world solo racer who took his family cruising on an ex-racer/cruiser, when asked why he didn't buy a heavyweight cruiser his answer was "you can slow down a fast boat, but you can't speed up a slow boat".
The main concession on my current boat is the skeg hung rudder, other wise the hull is a pretty good compromise of performance and stability.
When you consider the beatings transatlantic and round the world race boats take, it's amazing more of them don't fall apart.
There seems to be more acceptance of these designs in other parts of the world, but the American market is pretty conservative, some for good reason, some, just because. I don't think that will change anytime soon.

[Island Time O25]

I don't know the situation at the private "closed" sailing clubs but the business is booming at the public charter "open" ones. Not only do they grow their new membership yearly, made up of mostly either college or just post-college aged kids and young professionals but these people stay with sailing for relative long time frame.

One main reason these young sailors don't go to the ownership/private club route seems to be financial. It is damn expensive to own and maintain a sailboat (or any boat) in a major metropolitan area of US. So they do the best next thing - joining a charter club with lots of different types of sailboats - from old solings/lasers to 40+ft brand new cruisers. And all for the cost of no more than a season's slip fee had they gone the ownership route.

The reason I was able to break off from my old club and venture into ownership was the personal preference for good old boats which allowed me to keep the amortized acquisition, annual maintenance and use costs on par with the club's fees if not below (plus I had to go some ways away from downtown for a cheaper mooring which move may not be doable by the city dwelling and often carless young professional). But if I was dead set against buying/sailing an older boat I would probably still be a member of some club or other as the costs of buying/maintaining a decent sized new boat are exponentially higher than the club's fees.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by hoppy

Is it cultural? Local sailing conditions? Fear? Marketing?

I feel it has been decided, the answer is:

Yes

-or-


No


Either way it matters little as what difference does it make why people like what they like.

[Sandero]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I feel it has been decided, the answer is:

Yes

-or-


No


Either way it matters little as what difference does it make why people like what they like.

hahahaha... you're correct! People have so many things which informs or influences their decisions... Can one find some cultural qualities which emerge and dominate choices? Who knows? Hard to quantify and frankly who cares?

Designers and builders will try to find some sweet spot to exploit a perceived or imagined market demand... or create one!

I am not in the market for a boat and it's all navel (naval?) gazing.

I like good design... but loved that yacht design was beautiful because it was OPTIMALLY functional. When design dominates function... you get interesting looking boats which may not work well for everything one would expect from them.

Or so it seems.