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Old 21-03-2016, 04:08   #571
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

This discussion does not get at the core cultural difference in "yachting" or boating (to be less snobby) between NA and other places... My hunch is this discussion is driven by where / who designs boats and where / who builds them as much as who buys and uses them and how they use them.

MOST boats in this discussion are "recreational" ... a few are "lodging" or live aboard. For most "cruising" is "recreational...ie part time...whether measure in hour, day, week, or longer increments.

For longer "lodging" periods, boats are designed with more "creature" comforts.... so round the buoys racing boats dispense with the having creature comforts in their design and build.

The question of culture driven uses is complex... and includes disposable income, access to the sea including oceans, bays, lakes protected water, harbors, rivers etc., interesting cruising / sailing / boating "grounds/locations"... weather / climate, even fuel cost, and of course local recreational boating tradition.

Most recreational boating is not done for and by the "(multi) millionaire" class... which exist all over the world. This doesn't mean that a very wealthy person can't be an informed competent seaman. But the bigger the boat, the more and more you see the maintenance and operation performed by staff.

So what are the cultural differences?
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Old 21-03-2016, 04:11   #572
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Sorry about that, I thought this was a cruising forum

Fishing boats are fishing boats, they are used for fishing, costing them $50 000 or 3 millions. Cruising boats are cruising boats costing them $50 000 or 3 millions, they are used for cruising.
This reply makes no sense...

Sailing is functionally no different than fishing.. it's something to do with boats on the water. Cruising seems to imply sleeping aboard and doing it in different ports.
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Old 21-03-2016, 04:38   #573
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pirate Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Cruising seems to imply sleeping aboard and doing it in different ports.
Sounds about right.. but only 20% doing the different ports..
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Old 21-03-2016, 06:20   #574
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Sounds about right.. but only 20% doing the different ports..
hahahaha then that's weekend lodging on the water in a boat...nothing to do with fishing or sailing!
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Old 21-03-2016, 06:49   #575
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

After 39 pages, I am still not sure what is being compared here ...

Just looking at my country, there is no mandatory registration for 'pleasure crafts'. So how can you tell what sort of boats people have, let alone how they use them? Generally speaking, only (previously) mortgaged boats are registered here (and those are definitely a minority).

And even if you could find numbers, you don't know what kind of boat people prefer, only what boat they have. And that, in countries like the Netherlands, is often dictated by the limitations of the sailing area and planned use of the boat (dictated by sailing area and free time etc.).

If only looking at new boats ordered, you're looking at a small percentage of boat owners - not very representative of the majority.

And again, "Europe" = 44 - 51 countries depending on your definition of Europe. Some rich, some poor, some with a lot of boats (like the Netherlands), some without much of a 'boating culture' at all.
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Old 21-03-2016, 08:58   #576
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Environment has not been mentioned much. I have new seen very many performance boats in Northern Europe, mostly rugged boats fit for the channel and the North Sea. North America has different areas from the protect but very wet north west (great for pilot house) west coast and the mostly shallow east coast and the Caribbean. But the biggest driver of them all is the charter trade. As money berths as possible and a head for each. Shoal draft and small winches so clients do as little damage as possible to boats.
None of this is culture just environment.


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Old 21-03-2016, 09:31   #577
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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So you just take statistics and skew them in your favor by excluding these boat? Sure you can do that, you can even sing while doing it

p.s. many of the owners of those boats consider themselves cruising as they go from tournament to tournament, often thousands of miles apart. Or at least their crews do that and they fly and meet heheh.
I really don't understand your point. Being them pleasure cruisers or pleasure fishing boats they are all yachts and they are considered in all statistics, regarding the number of motor boats versus the number of sailboats on US (82% versus 2%) as well as on the global number of pleasure boats with less than 26ft and more than 26ft (93% versus 7%).


They are also considered on this graphic regarding yacht markets (pleasure crafts of some size) on Europe, US and the rest of the world, made by an American research firm.


Can you explain what is your point regarding Americans preferring as motor yachts a bigger percentage of big "fishing boats" (also cigarette type of fast motor boats) and Europeans preferring smaller fishing boat yacht type and a bigger number of cruising yachts?

They are all yachts and they all count for statistics (as well as different type of sailboats) namely regarding the ones about the dimension of Yacht markets in Europe and America.
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Old 21-03-2016, 10:10   #578
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Environment has not been mentioned much. I have new seen very many performance boats in Northern Europe, mostly rugged boats fit for the channel and the North Sea. ...
On a given region (North of Europe)the boat builders (brands), the number of them, the types of boats and number of boats they produce are a good way to understand and have an idea of the boat market on that country.

Old boats apart, since they don't represent what sailors want but what they have money to buy, new boats bought on a region give a pretty good idea of what those sailors want. However since many buy mass production boats because they cannot afford smaller production brands, I still think that brands on the region, able to survive and flourish, mostly given to the local market, are an even better indicator.

Regarding what sailors want on North of Europe, I think you are mistaken, regarding them wanting old designed rugged slow boats and also regarding not having many brands of performance boats doing performance cruisers (some even making a lot of boats) mostly for the local market, on North of Europe. If if they do that is obviously because North Europeans want them.

Regarding what North european sailors want and looking at one of the more popular boat on those parts, just compare the old Halberg Rassy 43 and the boat that will replace it, the new 44, a much better boat ( you can see on my blog why it is a better boat, I do there a comparison). Look at the old design and the new design:





Some years ago the new boat would be considered by many a performance cruiser and probably you will consider it as such. Taken from my blog:

"They talk about 8.8K speed at 100º with 12K true wind and even more impressively the VPP predicts with 6K true wind a boat speed over wind speed from 70º to 120º with a max speed of 6.7K at 100º. "

Regarding upwind performance the boat has one similar to the one of a fast 41ft cruiser racer, including pointing ability and performance on light winds. With strong winds it is even a bit faster.

This is what the conservative clients of HR want as a cruiser. Nobody wants or likes slow or outdated sailingboats.

The other North European brand with comparable production numbers is X Yacht and they make mostly performance cruisers and also some main market cruisers that are not slower neither less modern than the new HR44. I would say more modern.
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Old 21-03-2016, 10:22   #579
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Old boats apart, since they don't represent what sailors want but what they have money to buy,
Cos people who buy new boats have an unlimited budget and don't care if a boat costs 50k or 500k or 5M ... Nor do they have to bother with the right boat for their sailing area.

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Old 21-03-2016, 10:27   #580
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Except for the galley's being on the "wrong" side I personally like the old layout much more than the new one. And these salon "chairs" on the newer version tell me more about the direction HR is headed than any "technical" data.
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Old 21-03-2016, 10:43   #581
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Except for the galley's being on the "wrong" side I personally like the old layout much more than the new one. And these salon "chairs" on the newer version tell me more about the direction HR is headed than any "technical" data.
On that paper regarding cultural differences someone pointed out that Americans are more interested on interiors while Europeans more in sailing performance/design and it seems that they got it right

To say that the galley design and interior layout says more about to where the HR44 is pointed out than stability characteristically or sailing performance is just odd specially because HR always offered those chairs on their boats and also because the HR44 has a huge number of possible layouts, including a galley and settees like the ones on that drawing of the 43 (without chairs).

As the 43 can also have a similar layout as the one on the posted 44 in fact that does say absolutely nothing about "direction HR is headed".
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Old 21-03-2016, 10:49   #582
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Cos people who buy new boats ...... Nor do they have to bother with the right boat for their sailing area.
That does not make any sense. Obviously they have to chose the right boat for their sailing area and that is why boat builders and brands on that region, that make boats for that market and sailing area are a good indicator of what those sailors want.
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Old 21-03-2016, 11:29   #583
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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On that paper regarding cultural differences someone pointed out that Americans are more interested on interiors while Europeans more in sailing performance/design and it seems that they got it right

To say that the galley design and interior layout says more about to where the HR44 is pointed out than stability characteristically or sailing performance is just odd specially because HR always offered those chairs on their boats and also because the HR44 has a huge number of possible layouts, including a galley and settees like the ones on that drawing of the 43 (without chairs).

As the 43 can also have a similar layout as the one on the posted 44 in fact that does say absolutely nothing about "direction HR is headed".
My comments were limited to just these two models you posted. And, yes my personal opinion of having "chairs" in any kind of a sailing vessel will not change just because the hull design shows faster characteristics.
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Old 21-03-2016, 11:33   #584
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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That does not make any sense
Exactly.
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Old 21-03-2016, 12:52   #585
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Exactly.
Nice of you to agree
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