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Old 16-03-2016, 19:31   #466
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Interesting info. Sitting here at anchor in Providencia Colombia which is a few hundred miles off the Nicaraguan coast. Sort of reminds me of the South Pacific, locals tell me they only see 20 boats a year. Kinda nice to get a Sim card and see what's new on CF.
Regarding performance cruisers built like racers look how this boat is built:
JPK
Notice how the boat structure is integrated into the hull.

He started is career as boat building doing his own race boats (mini racers) but that was long ago. Now he continues to make race boats and performance cruisers...and still races now and then when his clients ask him to sail with them...and continues to win.

He has two fast voyage boats, the JPK 38:

and the new 45 (it is being built):




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Old 16-03-2016, 19:39   #467
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Cool boat but very racey not a voyaging boat. Looks like it would be fun to sail though.
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Old 16-03-2016, 19:42   #468
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Over 60K is F11 and I can tell you that in many years I never heard a gale or storm warning of F11 during the summer in the Med even if the Bora can blow at over 120nm in the winter.
The Beaufort scale is totally inappropriate to use when discussing katabatic etc winds. There is a huge difference between a F11 storm and a 60knot katabatic wind.
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Old 16-03-2016, 19:44   #469
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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No.. it means the hulls are wafer thin.. go look at one after its been T-boned sometime instead of talking to dealers looking for $$$'s
Spot on!.
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Old 16-03-2016, 19:56   #470
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pirate Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Cool boat but very racey not a voyaging boat. Looks like it would be fun to sail though.
Yup.. race boats are built disposable like race cars.. designed for a specific purpose.. everything pared to the bone to keep them as light as possible.. some just last a few 'Serious' races.. some don't even manage that.
A cruiser is supposed to be built for strength and endurance..
Ones a Volvo.. the other a Ferrari.. which is stuffed at the first sleeping policeman.
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Old 16-03-2016, 19:59   #471
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Cool boat but very racey not a voyaging boat. Looks like it would be fun to sail though.
The first on the video, the 1080 it is racy even if it has a good cruising interior and can be used for cruising but it is a more nervous boat that can do well on regattas and ocean racing. It did very well on the last Sydney Hobart beating an incredible number of bigger boats, some pure racers. The interior:


Not the 38 and the 45 that were designed as fast voyage boats, well not for you since you are very American typed in what regards the choice of voyage boats, but for Europeans that like to cruise and sail fast. For some guys of my generation that raced dinghies and for the younger guys that like to sail, these are their dream boats.

In fact they are designed to be sailed fast on autopilot, like the Pogo or RM, but have the advantage (over Pogo) of having an interior view forward that allows you to be inside on an ocean passage and having a look around from time to time. Pogo is correcting that and the new boats, starting by the new 36 will have that possibility too.

Look at the interior of the 38 and that big galley. Not a race boat ;-):
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Old 16-03-2016, 20:03   #472
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Spot on!.
Yes those boats are built basically the same way as the best performance cats and as light as them
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Old 16-03-2016, 20:10   #473
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Yup.. race boats are built disposable like race cars.. designed for a specific purpose.. everything pared to the bone to keep them as light as possible.. some just last a few 'Serious' races.. some don't even manage that.
A cruiser is supposed to be built for strength and endurance..
Ones a Volvo.. the other a Ferrari.. which is stuffed at the first sleeping policeman.
You beat me to it. People who keep repeating the mantra about "performance boats" implying they're better built simply do not know what they're talking about. It's exactly the opposite. Everything on them is just enough not to fall apart before finishing the specific race they're built for. Perhaps the mass producers have found a way to justify their flimsy construction and design.
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Old 16-03-2016, 20:20   #474
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Yup.. race boats are built disposable like race cars.. designed for a specific purpose.. everything pared to the bone to keep them as light as possible.. some just last a few 'Serious' races.. some don't even manage that.
A cruiser is supposed to be built for strength and endurance..
Ones a Volvo.. the other a Ferrari.. which is stuffed at the first sleeping policeman.
It is amazing how you are such an experienced cruiser and know so little about that: Old racing cats that have been raced in many transats and circumnavigations are being transformed in cruising boats after becoming obsolete as racers, decades after being built.



Old Open 60 racers, 15 and 20 year old boats, with several racing circumnavigations and many transats had a race created specially for them (Velux), since the boats are still sound, relatively fast but not competitive with recent boats.

Most old whitbread racers are still around, transformed in yachts or school boats.

What you say it is only true for inshore racers not for ocean racers. Those are sailed on conditions most sailboats are not, at the limit many times, close to breaking point, while cruisers are taking defensive sailing protecting the boat, racers keep pushing on. The boats have to be very strong.
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Old 16-03-2016, 20:36   #475
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pirate Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

I remember back in '98 just after the big race week in Palma de Mallorca I was asked to deliver a 45ft racer belonging to a UK Team that did the Circuit over to the mainland where it was to be lifted out and flatbedded to the UK for the big races over there..
She sailed on a breath of breeze.. I swear if I farted she'd do 6kts..
The only time I was ever stopped at sea by the Aduana's.. it was around 2am and no moon.. the radar return was so small they thought I was a small RIB indulging in something illegal.
They came on board and checked us out looking under the berths etc.. they were amazed when they discovered how light an access panel under a salon berth 3ft x18" was.. about the same as a cup of coffee.
All the weight was in the 11ft lead keel.. which they sawed in half before dropping the rest out the bottom.. it was going to be melted down and recast to an experimental shape for the UK circuit..
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Old 16-03-2016, 21:03   #476
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
The first on the video, the 1080 it is racy even if it has a good cruising interior and can be used for cruising but it is a more nervous boat that can do well on regattas and ocean racing. It did very well on the last Sydney Hobart beating an incredible number of bigger boats, some pure racers. The interior:


Not the 38 and the 45 that were designed as fast voyage boats, well not for you since you are very American typed in what regards the choice of voyage boats, but for Europeans that like to cruise and sail fast. For some guys of my generation that raced dinghies and for the younger guys that like to sail, these are their dream boats.

In fact they are designed to be sailed fast on autopilot, like the Pogo or RM, but have the advantage (over Pogo) of having an interior view forward that allows you to be inside on an ocean passage and having a look around from time to time. Pogo is correcting that and the new boats, starting by the new 36 will have that possibility too.

Look at the interior of the 38 and that big galley. Not a race boat ;-):
I hear ya, I guess I am on the conservative side when voyaging. My wife would not like preparing food at sea in that galley, some support in front of the cooker from the table but that's about it. Storage doesn't look good compared to our present boat but hey if I was a lot younger I might very well choose a boat like this. We went to sea in a C&C 36 over 30 years ago when everyone else was sailing Westsail 32's so I get your point but this is kinda like a backpackers cruise boat, if you know what I mean. Cool though I like it but these days it would not fit the bill for us. Keep them coming, I do enjoy seeing more of what you Euro types dream of cruising in.
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Old 17-03-2016, 04:31   #477
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pirate Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polux View Post
It is amazing how you are such an experienced cruiser and know so little about that: Old racing cats that have been raced in many transats and circumnavigations are being transformed in cruising boats after becoming obsolete as racers, decades after being built.



Old Open 60 racers, 15 and 20 year old boats, with several racing circumnavigations and many transats had a race created specially for them (Velux), since the boats are still sound, relatively fast but not competitive with recent boats.

Most old whitbread racers are still around, transformed in yachts or school boats.

What you say it is only true for inshore racers not for ocean racers. Those are sailed on conditions most sailboats are not, at the limit many times, close to breaking point, while cruisers are taking defensive sailing protecting the boat, racers keep pushing on. The boats have to be very strong.
And how many make it round in one piece without either sinking, withdrawing due to damage, dismasting or.. having to be partially rebuilt at one or more of their stops along the route at great expense..
If the fail rate was as high in the cruising world there'd be a lot fewer cruisers out there..
Kinda the reverse of a delivery skipper where a failure is the one remembered not the many successes..
With these its the winner that's remembered not the disasters in their wake..
But hell.. if you've large corporate or private funding backing you.. Go for it I say.. the boatyards around the world desperately need the work.
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Old 17-03-2016, 04:42   #478
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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The Beaufort scale is totally inappropriate to use when discussing katabatic etc winds. There is a huge difference between a F11 storm and a 60knot katabatic wind.
I agree but I was not talking about storms but about warnings on the med. Plenty of katabatic winds there (most of the strong ones). The Mistral, the Meltemi or the Bora are just some and its influence are not only local but reach vast areas.

Those warnings are always given using the Beaufort scale for wind and I was referring to that. When they give a warning for F9 on the summer (rare) that means that you have winds between 41 and 47K certainly not that the waves will be between 7 and 10m. Normally with a F9 on the med they are smaller.

Waves on the med are different than on Oceans, more steep, with a shorter period and smaller.
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Old 17-03-2016, 05:07   #479
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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And how many make it round in one piece without either sinking, withdrawing due to damage, dismasting or.. having to be partially rebuilt at one or more of their stops along the route at great expense..
....
Most of the boats that I was talking about made circumnavigations non stop. Boats partially rebuilt? I don't know of any among those. Put a cruising boat making a non stop circumnavigation race pushing the boat to the limit and the breakage will be much bigger.

Any boat that it is pushed to the limit takes more risks regarding dismasting.

Take for instance the Jester challenge, a simple Transatlantic raced in small mostly heavy old boats (stops are allowed) that it has a retirement percentage three times bigger than the Vendee Globe that is raced on 60ft race boats around the world non stop.

http://www.jesterinfo.org/jc2014entrylist.html
https://www.imoca.org/en/races/4-vendee-globe.htm

And that has nothing to do with the size, if you compare the mini transat, raced in smaller boats (average) than the Jester challenge, you will see that it has also a much smaller retirement percentage and contrary to the boats on the Jester challenge most of those boats had made already several Atlantic crossings, some many.

One of them after several Atlantic crossings went for a cruising circumnavigation. An old and cheap racer not properly refit. They did not change the chainplates and at some point they lost the mast that had to be replaced but they had zero problems with hull integrity, structure problems or keel problems.



If someone wants more information about this I have followed the circumnavigation on my blog.
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Old 17-03-2016, 05:37   #480
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pirate Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Most of the boats that I was talking about made circumnavigations non stop. Boats partially rebuilt? I don't know of any among those. Put a cruising boat making a non stop circumnavigation race pushing the boat to the limit and the breakage will be much bigger.

Any boat that it is pushed to the limit takes more risks regarding dismasting.

Take for instance the Jester challenge, a simple Transatlantic race in small mostly heavy old boats (stops are allowed) that it has a retirement percentage two times bigger than the Vendee Globe that is raced on 60ft race boats around the world non stop.

And that has nothing to do with the size, if you compare the mini transat, raced in smaller boats than the Jester challenge also with a much smaller retirement percentage.
Ahahahahaaaaa... that's a good one to pull out of the hat..
The Jester is the only amateur single handed race left in the world.. no entry fee and no big cup at the other end.. the criteria is they must be 20ft to 30ft maximum with an occasional 'Guest' exception.. and includes multi's.
Most boats are on average 30yrs old or more and maintained on a shoestring with no pre-race inspections of any kind.. safety and survival are down to each individuals choice and the test is not for the boats but more for the skippers endurance.
1 Year its Plymouth to the Azores.. the next year its Plymouth to Newport.. stops allowed and no time limit.. survival on the minimum is the objective.
A regular competitor was Roger Taylor and Ming Ming.. a 21ft Corribee from the 70's.. also Rory MacDougal and his Wharram Tiki 21 that he circumnavigated 25odd years ago..
Somewhat different from the heavily sponsored Minitransat boats your talking about..
Most are budgeted around 5,000-10,000 as opposed to $15-$25million for Vendees and who knows what for the Mini 650's....
Also the average age of the competitors is the high 50's not the low 20's.
Man you do love your no comparison Polar Opposites
Some contestants rafted up below.. and 2 mini 6.50's on the hard
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