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Old 16-03-2016, 08:29   #451
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
And also a lot of misinformation around. For instance if you ask to a sailor what is the stronger boat and the more adequate for blue-water sailing, if the Dufour 45 performance or the Dufour 460 Grand Large 90% will say that the Grand Large (that means bluewater) is stronger since it is designed for cruising while the other is designed for cruising and racing.

The truth is that the Dufour 45 is much more used (and designed) for cruising than for racing, it has a great cruising interior, it is built in a much more expensive way, using better materials and obviously it is much more expensive....and stronger.

Probably they sell 30 460 for each Dufour 45 and they are interested in maintaining that ambiguity since it is good to sell boats. I bet most would think that only a fool would buy a 45 instead of a 460, since the 460 seems the same with just a bigger interior and more interior volume.



Off course, the Dufour 45 has a steeped mast while the 460 has it over the deck

And I am not saying that unless one is interested in sailing the boat extensively, particularly offshore, that the 45 performance is a better boat for someone.

Probably for most, that will use not sail so much the boat, but stay many time on anchor and doing small passages between nice coves, the 460 makes a lot more sense, with its bigger interior and inferior price.

For me the only problem is the misinformation namely the Grand Large denomination given to the less seaworthy boat. I guess that the few that will buy a Dufour from the performance series know that the boat is more seaworthy than the Grand Large (typically they are more experienced sailors) but the ones that will buy the Grand Large are probably convinced otherwise and with a certain reason since the name is misleading.
Interesting information. Do you have more suggestions about the other lower priced builders as to which of their boats are better suited to rougher offshore conditions??
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Old 16-03-2016, 08:31   #452
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Zika is like a lot of scare mongering, very over blown unless you are pregnant.
Robert,

Back in 2012/13 we got Chikunkunya in Martinique. We were never aware there was an Epidemic until we landed. It is 2016 and we still feel pains in our joints. Who knows, maybe we got chronic.

With 1700 confirmed cases of Zika only last week in Martinique, I doubt your take is based in facts.

If you want to prove I am wrong please get Zika, suffer all the consequences, and then feel the long term effects, then come to this thread and post your impressions.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 16-03-2016, 08:50   #453
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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I don't find that to be the case at all. Most serious cruisers I meet are remarkably well versed on many areas they have never been to. Certainly I've never sailed in a Papagayo, but I know what one is. More to the point, making Jedi's post about how every area has a name for their wind into something about the Mistral only is silly. Assuming forecasting is good in remote areas like that is madness. So is assuming you will never be caught out in anything above 40 knots. What about katabatics? Only someone who doesn't actually cruise much could think this was even possible.
Not an intelligent answer.... Of course people who venture off... are well advised to do research... and cruising is clearly about venturing off to new places. It's called "be prepared".

But clearly experience is a different from "book knowledge"... and the nature of the weather and the sea is that it's just not as predictable as the tides or the sun rising and setting. Weather forecasts usually include probabilities expressed as % and the further in the future the less reliable they are. And these days the weather is very unpredictable in many places.

I don't know Polux from a hole in the wall... but I would bet he would agree with what I have written here.
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Old 16-03-2016, 12:08   #454
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
I don't find that to be the case at all. Most serious cruisers I meet are remarkably well versed on many areas they have never been to. Certainly I've never sailed in a Papagayo, but I know what one is. More to the point, making Jedi's post about how every area has a name for their wind into something about the Mistral only is silly. Assuming forecasting is good in remote areas like that is madness. So is assuming you will never be caught out in anything above 40 knots. What about katabatics? Only someone who doesn't actually cruise much could think this was even possible.
Thank you for writing that because I don't want to counter those squirming, evading discussion tactics anymore; it's too boring

The point is simply that sailing in 30kts should be considered routine and experienced should be build up to sail through squalls and storms with 40-50kts and the boat should easily deal with all this... -for those wishing to sail off-shore passages-. It is what all experienced off shore sailors will tell you and isn't it amazing how they all agree on these issues even here on CF and how others just feel the need to attack that. I lost count of how many I pulled off reefs, brought to hospitals, prevented from grounding etc. and they just keep coming
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Old 16-03-2016, 12:50   #455
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Good lord, it's obvious you know absolutely nothing about cruising outside your own small area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papagayo_wind
Well the post was mainly about Mistral and that one I know very well. Regarding the rest, you mean that I don't know the coastal winds of the Pacific? it seems logical the same way you probably don't know the ones on the China or Vietnam, unless you sail there.

Anyway the Papagayo contrary to the Tehuano don't seem to be a great deal due to the shortness of the description and the way it is described: "stronger than the trade winds"

The delivery skipper of that Dufour 500 talked about the expected difficult conditions on the Golfo de Tehuantepec (he got less than 40K) due to the Tehuantepecer wind and that one can be stronger and it is best known but it is during the winter that it can be really strong:

"Tehuantepecer, or Tehuano wind, is a violent mountain-gap wind traveling through Chivela Pass, most common between October and February, with a summer minimum in July....Tehuantepec winds reach 20 knots (40 km/h) to 45 knots (80 km/h), and on rare occasions 100 knots (200 km/h)."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tehuantepecer

So it seems the less than 40K was in fact difficult conditions regarding the average force of that wind.

The skipper does not say when he made the delivery but I much doubt he would have found winds over 60k if the delivery was made on the more favorable sailing season on that region.

Taking any mass production boat, in fact taking any small boat to over 60K wind conditions is not a smart act to say the least. He was making a coastal delivery and could have certainly have avoided that.



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Old 16-03-2016, 13:15   #456
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Interesting information. Do you have more suggestions about the other lower priced builders as to which of their boats are better suited to rougher offshore conditions??
This was posted as an answer to a poster that owns an Elan 450 that was saying about the same and I have no doubt he knows it since Elan, like Dufour, has two lines, a cheaper one with fatter boats that they call Impression and a performance one. His boat is from the more expensive performance line and he knows it is better built than an impression with better sailing hardware and a better stability.

A cruising boat if it is as well built as a performance boat is not cheaper to build and in that case it is probably stronger than the performance boat. That is the case for instance of the Xyacht XC line of cruising boats regarding the performance line XP or the case of the new Grand Soleil LC line (cruising) regarding the performance cruising line.

When there is a brand that have a performance line and a cruising line and the cruising line is a lot cheaper (with a better interior) suspicion should arise and if you look closer you will see the boats are not built the same way neither the sailing hardware is the same.

Another way to look at it regards B/D with identical keels and drafts. Increasing the B/D is a very expensive thing because all the boat structure has to be much stronger. Inexpensive main market cruisers tend to have the B/D to a minimum necessary to assure a decent AVS. Performance cruisers have to have more because you don't have real performance without that and therefore they end up having also a much better final stability.

If you look at boats like the Grand Soleil 46LC or a XC yacht you are going to find out that their B/D is not smaller than the one of their sister performance boats, being both versions (cruising and performance) expensive boats. Now compare the B/D of a First with the one of an Oceanis and you will see what I mean.
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Old 16-03-2016, 13:20   #457
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Robert,

Back in 2012/13 we got Chikunkunya in Martinique. We were never aware there was an Epidemic until we landed. It is 2016 and we still feel pains in our joints. Who knows, maybe we got chronic.

With 1700 confirmed cases of Zika only last week in Martinique, I doubt your take is based in facts.

If you want to prove I am wrong please get Zika, suffer all the consequences, and then feel the long term effects, then come to this thread and post your impressions.

Cheers,
b.
Some friends of ours also got chikunkunya in St. Maarten and it was a very long lasting sickness. From everything we have learned about Zika it is much milder in comparison
Sorta like a mild flue. We are in Central America right now, right in the middle of all the action.
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Old 16-03-2016, 13:24   #458
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
This was posted as an answer to a poster that owns an Elan 450 that was saying about the same and I have no doubt he knows it since Elan, like Dufour, has two lines, a cheaper one with fatter boats that they call Impression and a performance one. His boat is from the more expensive performance line and he knows it is better built than an impression with better sailing hardware and a better stability.

A cruising boat if it is as well built as a performance boat is not cheaper to build and in that case it is probably stronger than the performance boat. That is the case for instance of the Xyacht XC line of cruising boats regarding the performance line XP or the case of the new Grand Soleil LC line (cruising) regarding the performance cruising line.

When there is a brand that have a performance line and a cruising line and the cruising line is a lot cheaper (with a better interior) suspicion should arise and if you look closer you will see the boats are not built the same way neither the sailing hardware is the same.

Another way to look at it regards B/D with identical keels and drafts. Increasing the B/D is a very expensive thing because all the boat structure has to be much stronger. Inexpensive main market cruisers tend to have the B/D to a minimum necessary to assure a decent AVS. Performance cruisers have to have more because you don't have real performance without that and therefore they end up having also a much better final stability.

If you look at boats like the Grand Soleil 46LC or a XC yacht you are going to find out that their B/D is not smaller than the one of their sister performance boats, being both versions (cruising and performance) expensive boats. Now compare the B/D of a First with the one of an Oceanis and you will see what I mean.
So in your mind the B/1st is a much better built boat the the Oceanis series? What about Jenneau and Bavaria?
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Old 16-03-2016, 13:38   #459
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Originally Posted by minaret View Post
I don't find that to be the case at all. Most serious cruisers I meet are remarkably well versed on many areas they have never been to. Certainly I've never sailed in a Papagayo, but I know what one is. More to the point, making Jedi's post about how every area has a name for their wind into something about the Mistral only is silly. Assuming forecasting is good in remote areas like that is madness. So is assuming you will never be caught out in anything above 40 knots. What about katabatics? Only someone who doesn't actually cruise much could think this was even possible.
You seem that only the ones that voyage are serious cruisers. Anyone that cruises is a cruiser. That are some that made more or less miles, some that make more coastal cruising others more ocean miles. Some are more experienced than others on one or other type of cruising.

Cruising is not about seriousness it is about pleasure and that is why we all sail pleasure boats.

Forecasting today is a global affair and the models are available worldwide and available on internet.

Being an experienced coastal cruiser and sailing not only but mostly on the Med I am very used to Katabatic winds and a Bora or Mistral are not very different from a Papagayo or a Tehuano and they don't go to over 60K on what is called the sailing season, the most favorable sailing period.

Over 60K is F11 and I can tell you that in many years I never heard a gale or storm warning of F11 during the summer in the Med even if the Bora can blow at over 120nm in the winter.
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Old 16-03-2016, 13:47   #460
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Some friends of ours also got chikunkunya in St. Maarten and it was a very long lasting sickness. From everything we have learned about Zika it is much milder in comparison
Sorta like a mild flue. We are in Central America right now, right in the middle of all the action.
It is different when we look at an epidemic that happened some time ago and another one that is just developing. We simply do not know, at this stage, how serious (aside from microcephaly and GB Syndrome, if someone considers them non serious) Zika is. We do not have the data yet.

Given the vector is alike for Chiky, Dengue and Zika, I would NOT play down the risk and call it scare mongering and overblown. I believe, if it were so, the WHO would not have called it PHEIC along Swine Flu, Polio, and Ebola.

My take is: do NOT get Zika. This is best achieved by not being where Zika is: Brazil to Mexico. If Zika is anything like Dengue and or Chiku then the epidemic will last till late 2016 or thereabouts. You will see me in the West Indies winter 2017.

Cheers,
b.
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Old 16-03-2016, 13:51   #461
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pirate Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

Next time I'm in the Canaries your welcome to get them photo copied.. if there's a shop that does full size charts.
North Atlantic ones getting a bit frayed though.
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Old 16-03-2016, 13:51   #462
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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So in your mind the B/1st is a much better built boat the the Oceanis series? What about Jenneau and Bavaria?
On Bavaria I would say the the Vision series is better built, or at least it was what said to me someone that is one of the main Bavaria dealers (more than 200 boats a year) and the difference in price seems to confirm that.

Regarding Jeanneau I don't know. Certainly the new Sun Fast have a completely different built than the other Jeanneaus and I would say that they have to be stronger to deal with the kind of pressure they are put in but contrary to the other brands that I have mentioned they are practically race boats and the bigger one has only 36ft.

On the Industry I have heard many times owners of shipyards referring to performance cruisers ,intending to say that they are strong and well built, saying that they are built like race boats, meaning a superior built quality.
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Old 16-03-2016, 14:06   #463
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On the Industry I have heard many times owners of shipyards referring to performance cruisers ,intending to say that they are strong and well built, saying that they are built like race boats, meaning a superior built quality.
No.. it means the hulls are wafer thin.. go look at one after its been T-boned sometime instead of talking to dealers looking for $$$'s
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Old 16-03-2016, 14:07   #464
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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On Bavaria I would say the the Vision series is better built, or at least it was what said to me someone that is one of the main Bavaria dealers (more than 200 boats a year) and the difference in price seems to confirm that.

Regarding Jeanneau I don't know. Certainly the new Sun Fast have a completely different built than the other Jeanneaus and I would say that they have to be stronger to deal with the kind of pressure they are put in but contrary to the other brands that I have mentioned they are practically race boats and the bigger one has only 36ft.

On the Industry I have heard many times owners of shipyards referring to performance cruisers ,intending to say that they are strong and well built, saying that they are built like race boats, meaning a superior built quality.
Interesting info. Sitting here at anchor in Providencia Colombia which is a few hundred miles off the Nicaraguan coast. Sort of reminds me of the South Pacific, locals tell me they only see 20 boats a year. Kinda nice to get a Sim card and see what's new on CF.
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Old 16-03-2016, 15:24   #465
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Re: Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

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Next time I'm in the Canaries your welcome to get them photo copied.. if there's a shop that does full size charts.
North Atlantic ones getting a bit frayed though.
Great thanks. I will be interested!

We are here till late fall then we go to the other side I hope. If you are here I will be very happy to give you a crash course in Canary wines!

Cheers,
b.
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