Yacht type choice - Cultural differences?

[Sandero]

Cruising off requires one be able to get free of land encumbrances... have a suitably fitted seaworthy vessel... adequate experience / skills and money to pay for the cost of living/cruising. And of course the plans often stretch out to the period of "retirement" after building a stash, getting the boat and the skills.. and having the time. But alas people at the time have less strength and stamina and so probably many are content to mess about with boats... live aboard and cruise locally and not take the plunge. And the less seaworthy boats that look sharp and are fine for most conditions work. After all MOST for personal use are deemed "recreational" meaning that they serve a different purpose than a live aboard cruising vessel does.

Some take the plunge earlier and return having scratched the itch... and then get back to land with or without the boat (usually with I suspect)...

[s/v Jedi]

I think somebody must have posted this before, but this interior is much more likely to be appreciated by all those (incl. me) who complain about the fake condo interiors. Is especially like the wood and it's finishing on the main bulkhead, with the classy lamps etc.

[hoppy]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I think somebody must have posted this before, but this interior is much more likely to be appreciated by all those (incl. me) who complain about the fake condo interiors. Is especially like the wood and it's finishing on the main bulkhead, with the classy lamps etc.

and a modern underwater shape in a boat that is designed for Bluewater

[Sailor Doug]

Just a shade lighter on the wood work (a nice blond colour) and it would be perfect.


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[Polux]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I think somebody must have posted this before, but this interior is much more likely to be appreciated by all those (incl. me) who complain about the fake condo interiors. Is especially like the wood and it's finishing on the main bulkhead, with the classy lamps etc.

From all the Europeans Scandinavians are the ones that are probably the more conservative in what regards Yacht's changes, including interiors.

That interior in what regards design has changed less quickly than the ones from other European regions but even so you can see a big difference regarding the ones from the same brand 20 years ago:


Brands design the boat's interiors following tastes of their clients and change them with the evolution of client's tastes.

Even regarding HR and the interior you posted (same boat) they offer different wood and choices of colors. I think this is the more popular since it is the one that I see on the boat shows and it is a bit more modern in what regards choice of woods and upholstery.

But yes it is a lot more conservative than the ones from other quality boats from other European regions:


Halberg Rassy are among the more conservative Yacht targeting the more conservative clientele, so it would be expected that they had interiors as conservative as the boats, but the fact is that client's taste have been changing even on HR, at a slower pace, but changing anyway.

Regarding Scandinavia Brands you can find those interiors you like on other conservative expensive brands, small production ones:




On the market the two things are associated, conservative boats and conservative interiors, more modern boats, less conservative clients and more modern interiors.

Even considering Scandinavia if you look at less conservative yachts you will find that they have a lot less conservative interiors (Swan and Baltic):



But the association that is normally made regarding modern interiors and less quality interiors is one that makes no sense. I have no doubt that any of the modern interiors I posted here are of a quality similar to the posted ones with conservative interiors even if built with lighter materials and a different design.

[minaret]

BBC - Autos - A motor yacht for serious petrolheads



Just found it entertaining.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Polux

But the association that is normally made regarding modern interiors and less quality interiors is one that makes no sense. I have no doubt that any of the modern interiors I posted here are of a quality similar to the posted ones with conservative interiors even if built with lighter materials and a different design.

I was not referring to the quality of high end builders/models but rather to your average mass production new boats. The ones which are realistically purchased by the 95% of those in the market for new boats. And these are incidentally are generally the ones most often exhibited at the US boat shows which I attended.

So I am not lumping Swans or Oysters in the "poor workmanship/design" camp but the ones which are the staple of the entry to mid level new boat market.

And again speaking only from the pov of my own taste and preferences, given a choice of spending say $250K to $300K on a new mass produced 38-42 footer or getting a 30-35 year old Swan or HR of similar size for say $100-150K and sinking another $100-150K into a comprehensive rehab/refit I will always chose the latter.

[Sailor Doug]

Current boats are build with computer controlled machinery. This gives a big advantage to high volume builders.


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[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Sailor Doug

Current boats are build with computer controlled machinery. This gives a big advantage to high volume builders.


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IMO it's a double edged sword. It also allows for proliferation of design/execution flaws which go unnoticed until it is too late. Titanic was a marvel of design and engineering in its time and as a consequence was allegedly pronounced "unsinkable".

It seems that most of the today's technical advances go not into safety/seaworthiness but to reduce production costs and to appeal to the "boat as a condo" crowd. With safety/seaworthiness sometimes being an accidental beneficiary and sometimes a sacrificial burden.

Unfortunately the marketing push and hoopla by the new boat makers and artificially created cult of new for the sake of newness desirability precludes an industry wide establishment of refit/rehab businesses for older well proven designs and models. Not only would this save a few landfills from sound hulls being dumped there but it would, as by product, save/create many more local jobs as opposed to aiding some far away foreign economies.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

....
And again speaking only from the pov of my own taste and preferences, given a choice of spending say $250K to $300K on a new mass produced 38-42 footer or getting a 30-35 year old Swan or HR of similar size for say $100-150K and sinking another $100-150K into a comprehensive rehab/refit I will always chose the latter.

yes it is understandable given your preferences for old designs that are nonetheless minority ones.

You would have the boat that you want but you would be losing money big time since recovering an old boat to a new condition including furniture it is a very expensive affair, the boat would still be an old design, with a poorer sailing performance and his value on the used market would not reflect the money you have spent on the boat, losing more money than if you had bought a new boat.


Some years ago I read a very interesting article regarding a guy with similar tastes as yours that didn't want a new Halberg Rassy but an old HR design and wanted the boat in perfect conditions. In the end the boat costed 3/4 of the price of a new boat (and the guy was very happy, saying that he had saved some money) but there was a lot of guys pointing out that if he sold the boat he would be losing big time compared selling an almost new HR.

In the end I agree with you: If one has the money then what matters is to have a boat that fully satisfies and makes him proud of it.

[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Polux

yes it is understandable given your preferences for old designs that are nonetheless minority ones.

You would have the boat that you want but you would be losing money big time since recovering an old boat to a new condition including furniture it is a very expensive affair, the boat would still be an old design, with a poorer sailing performance and his value on the used market would not reflect the money you have spent on the boat, losing more money than if you had bought a new boat.


Some years ago I read a very interesting article regarding a guy with similar tastes as yours that didn't want a new Halberg Rassy but an old HR design and wanted the boat in perfect conditions. In the end the boat costed 3/4 of the price of a new boat (and the guy was very happy, saying that he had saved some money) but there was a lot of guys pointing out that if he sold the boat he would be losing big time compared selling an almost new HR.

In the end I agree with you: If one has the money then what matters is to have a boat that fully satisfies and makes him proud of it.

I understand that boat ownership is not a money making or even a money saving proposition and my preference is more so than going new. But if at some point new boats will satisfy my checkpoints of what I consider important or a must, I will likely change my mind. I do not prefer older designs/builds on a whim but specifically because the new designs in the realistic price range (again not talking about one off $2-3mil special order boats) are not good value for me.

BTW it is precisely that type of thinking that goes into buying new vs. old. The new boat buyer is usually sophisticated business wise person with good accountants, etc. (otherwise how could he/she afford a $300-500K new boat?) and has the wherewithal to set up a corporation or some such mechanism to maximize tax advantages, etc. So of course with that in mind refurbishing an older boat looks even less desirable cost wise even with all other things being equal.

[Sailor Doug]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

IMO it's a double edged sword. It also allows for proliferation of design/execution flaws which go unnoticed until it is too late. Titanic was a marvel of design and engineering in its time and as a consequence was allegedly pronounced "unsinkable".

It seems that most of the today's technical advances go not into safety/seaworthiness but to reduce production costs and to appeal to the "boat as a condo" crowd. With safety/seaworthiness sometimes being an accidental beneficiary and sometimes a sacrificial burden.

Unfortunately the marketing push and hoopla by the new boat makers and artificially created cult of new for the sake of newness desirability precludes an industry wide establishment of refit/rehab businesses for older well proven designs and models. Not only would this save a few landfills from sound hulls being dumped there but it would, as by product, save/create many more local jobs as opposed to aiding some far away foreign economies.

There was a time when boat hulls where never symmetrical the best of craftsman were limited by there tools and ability to measure. You must surly have heard of boats that where always faster on one tack than the other. Now CNC machined plugs eliminate variation.
My original post was really referring to interior carpentry.


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[Island Time O25]

Originally Posted by Sailor Doug

There was a time when boat hulls where never symmetrical the best of craftsman were limited by there tools and ability to measure. You must surly have heard of boats that where always faster on one tack than the other. Now CNC machined plugs eliminate variation.
My original post was really referring to interior carpentry.


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I found that out when my boat builder/designer buddy was helping me install a stern swimming platform. After he measured the stern every which way it turned out it was off the symmetrical by just less than an inch. He did say it was very normal on a 30 year old 36' 17,000 lbs hull, actually even an accomplishment, to be "only" an inch off.

[Polux]

The American magazine Soundings published some years ago (2008) a very interesting article about cultural differences between the American and European market, quoting several key figures on the American sailboat industry on the theme. The article is titled:

U.S. Sailboats A Tough Sell In The E.U.

..I managed to scout the boat show in Düsseldorf, Germany, which claims to be the “world’s No. 1 yachting and water sports trade fair.”

Official numbers suggest the show attracted nearly 280,000 people,..By comparison, the U.S. Sail and Powerboat shows in Annapolis, Md., each draw 40,000 to 50,000 visitors. So, yes, it was a big affair with 17 halls and 1,700 exhibitors from 57 countries ..

Personally, I was eager to find out how American sailboat builders are kicking butt in Europe by turning a low dollar into high profits … or so I thought....

This shindig is a Who’s Who of the European boating industry. Nearly 400 executives and media representatives came to listen to a saxophone duo and raid an exquisite buffet, while finding out which boats are hot and which are not, as decreed by a jury of 11 European boating magazines. There were five categories with five nominees in each — 25 boats culled from approximately 80 entrants. None of the nominees was from the United States, which might sound surprising, but is actually par for the course.

From a total of 107 boats nominated since the contest’s inception in 2002, only two came from the States: the J/100 in 2005 and the C&C 115 in 2006. That’s less than 5 percent. This number suggests that American builders don’t make what Europeans want, or don’t have the budgets to make Europeans want what they make. Like, for instance, Harley Davidson does.

If nearly 4,000 participants in a German magazine reader survey were marginally truthful, U.S. sailboat builders have simply slipped under the radar. The list of top sailboat brands does not include a U.S. yard, with more U.S. strikeouts in the categories of reliability, quality, service, price/value and appearance. As the only U.S. brand mentioned in the survey, J/Boats got seventh in the list of “modern and progressive boats” and second in “sport boats.”

“It’s a big and interesting market, but it’s also a tough market, [and] we’re scratching our heads,” says Cuyler Morris, president of Bass Harbor, Maine-based Morris Yachts, which exhibited the M36 daysailer in Düsseldorf. “We are not a big production yard, but we’d love to increase our sales here — without breaking the bank.”

.....A cultural divide:

With 40 years of mucking around with sailboats in the United States and Europe, my personal impression is that American consumers are more pragmatic than Europeans, who love to get bogged down with geek stuff. In Düsseldorf, I saw a Hobie Cat 14 with a new chop top main next to a Flying Dutchman, which brought this difference into focus: here, a simple, bare-bones boat that is affordable, easy to sail and just as easy to maintain; there, a tricked-out racing machine with carbon rig, dual spinnaker poles and a million cleats and strings for fine-tuning.

“As a U.S. company you have to respect the regional and cultural differences,” says Stephen Cutsforth, international sales director at Alachua, Fla.-based Hunter Marine, which closed its U.K. manufacturing facility after building approximately 650 vessels there during six years of operation. “Europeans put more emphasis on design and style, while Americans are more interested in comfortable interiors,” he explains, pointing out that Hunter has retained a European design firm to assist with styling. ...

“There is a higher percentage of adults who race dinghies,” says Jeff Johnstone, who heads Newport, R.I.-based J/Boats, which builds in France. “And for them it is a natural progression to step into a performance keelboat as they get older.”

Jochen Rieker, editor of Die Yacht, talks about the upwind slog for U.S. boatbuilders in Europe, with an oblique reference to Volkswagen’s “Fahrvergnügen” ad campaign. “Europeans love the cult of mobility — sleek, fast and well-engineered cars that are sinfully expensive but nice to look at and fun to drive,” he says. “Some of this spills over to pleasure boats, and from my perspective it seems that U.S. manufacturers are not always grasping the particular and varied tastes of European customers.” ...
But not all is doom. Werner Stolz, the German representative of Corsair Marine, the Chula Vista, Calif., company that produces folding trimarans, likens current economic conditions to a good breeze on the beam. “We ship directly from our factory in Vietnam to the European dealers,” says Stolz. “I remember 1999, when the dollar was high. It was tough, but we still sold boats. Business started growing in 2002, and now we are at 30 units per year.”

U.S. sailboats a tough sell in the E.U. | Soundings Online

I have already made, on this thread, some of the points that are made here, namely regarding Europeans to be more sensitive to the evolution of boat design/Style and sailboat performance while Americans are more interested in more classic interiors. Like Europeans more interested in technology and fine tuning while Americans more interested in what the author calls pragmatism, meaning less complicated, less performant and less expensive in what regards everything but interiors.

Also in what regards performance cruisers having a significant market in Europe and almost nonexistent on the states.

Regarding sales of European boats on the US they are even lower than in 2008, giving the lower price of the Euro and the bankruptcy of American brands or the big scale down in production. On Dusseldorf this year the only American boats were J boats (that are made in France) and Corsair, that come directly from Vietnam. Besides those the only other was a small but fat Hunter 31.

J boats and Corsair trimarans continue to interest Europeans and particularly J boats continue to sell well.

I guess the Hunter 31 interior is a good example of what Americans want (wanted?) in a sailboat:

While the new J 112 will be more interesting to Europeans (lot more visiting it than the Hunter 31).

Of course it is not the interior but the concept itself: The Hunter 31 with a big slightly outside interior on a slow fat boat and the J112 with a modern functional interior with comparatively less voluminous on an elegant high performance sailboat. Those different choices are in accordance with what has been said in that article.



It regards to be seem if the Americans want? or wanted? since it seems that the American taste is converging to the European one or at least is the conclusion that I make regarding Hunter having become very small in sales in US when compared with Beneteau and Jeanneau, that are the same in Europe and on the US.

A difference will remain in what regards the taste for performance boats that is much more significant in Europe, even if far from dominant.

[Polux]

Originally Posted by Island Time O25

.... The new boat buyer is usually sophisticated business wise person with good accountants, etc. (otherwise how could he/she afford a $300-500K new boat?) and has the wherewithal to set up a corporation or some such mechanism to maximize tax advantages, etc. So of course with that in mind refurbishing an older boat looks even less desirable cost wise even with all other things being equal.

I believe the typical new boat owner on that range of prices, is the type of guy that chose to have a new boat instead of a 2th vacation house at the beach or at the country. Certainly mid class type and the boat will be probably less expensive than the house or cottage.

What is the number of citizens that have a second small holiday house in the US?

The sophisticated businessman will have a luxury yacht that will cost around one million or more.