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Old 01-07-2015, 06:33   #16
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

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Originally Posted by Tscott8201 View Post
I find the line is pretty fuzzy...
More than "fuzzy," there is no line. I mean, if your sailboat has no motor at all then it would be pretty crazy to call it a "motor-sailer." And if your powerboat has no sail then it would be equally crazy to call it a "motor-sailer." Other than that, it is entirely up to you to decide what you will call a "sailboat" and what you will call a "motor-sailer." There is no generally-accepted definition. There is no standards-setting committee that has handed down an official description. Different people draw the line in different places, according to the whims of the moment.

So, in reality, the question is simple and the answer is not at all complicated. There is no "line," except the one that you choose to draw for yourself.
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Old 01-07-2015, 09:08   #17
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

Answer is design of the entire vessel Old adage a motorsailor neither motors nor sails well as it is a hybrid.
My 42 cutter came underpowered with a 40 hp engine, later upped to 60 hp but when that died I upped again to a 110 Yanmar. Guess it may be called a motor sailor as I can motor at 9 knts but it still sails well and the new Yanmar is 300 lbs lighter than the old Isuzu!
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Old 01-07-2015, 10:54   #18
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

I'd like to think there are different types of Motorsailers. Like this..

#1 One with too small engine and sails so you need use both most of the time. 50/50
#2 Low aspect rig and longish keel. Makes well way alone with sails except close hauled when it's time start big iron genny. 70/70
#3 Sails well to all points. Drive Train with enough power to go hull speed in most sea states at cruise rpm. 100/100

..and must have a pilothouse
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Old 01-07-2015, 11:39   #19
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

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Originally Posted by Tscott8201 View Post
Simple question, with what I am guessing is a very complicated answer. Where is the line drawn between full fledged yacht and motor sailer? I find the line is pretty fuzzy, as a matter of fact, the more I ponder the question, I am not even sure what the definition of a motor sailer is.

Tom
It is purely semantics. A yacht to one is a boat to others?
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Old 01-07-2015, 12:14   #20
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

A well designed motorsailer has the perfect balance of power, comfort, and economy and is happy in any conditions 99% of the time.

This site explains it fairly well.
What's a Motorsailer?

In my boat, my travel is divided fairly evenly between motoring, sailing, and motorsailing. It really doesn't matter what the weather is like; calm, wet, rough, blowy - it's always a treat to get out on the water.

I get a bit tired of the old adage regarding a motorsailer does neither very well.

No - motorsailers won't win power boat races, or sailing races. But the occupants will be the ones with the biggest smiles on their faces.
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Old 01-07-2015, 12:22   #21
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

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Originally Posted by Kokanee View Post
A well designed motorsailer has the perfect balance of power, comfort, and economy and is happy in any conditions 99% of the time.

This site explains it fairly well.
What's a Motorsailer?

In my boat, my travel is divided fairly evenly between motoring, sailing, and motorsailing. It really doesn't matter what the weather is like; calm, wet, rough, blowy - it's always a treat to get out on the water.

I get a bit tired of the old adage regarding a motorsailer does neither very well.

No - motorsailers won't win power boat races, or sailing races. But the occupants will be the ones with the biggest smiles on their faces.
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Old 01-07-2015, 12:44   #22
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

Nauticat calls their two lines of boats "pilothouse sailing yachts" and "traditional motorsailers". They seem to draw the line between those two categories.

Nauticat Yachts
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Old 01-07-2015, 13:16   #23
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

Would this be good line between the types:

In Finland it's commonly said it's a sailboat if it can tack in 6m/s wind on sails alone. Motor Sailer needs more wind or motor assisting the tack.

So this not based on measures of the boat, but on the ability to sail (windward).

-Petri
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Old 01-07-2015, 13:18   #24
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

https://www.dropbox.com/home/Puffin%20II

The mfgr of my little boat calls it a pilothouse motorsailer.

28 ft OAL 28hp 3cyl VP 17x14 3 blade prop cruise 6kt 7kt WOT Hull speed 6.2kt

Sail with 140Genny 5-6kt Displ. 8800lb dry makes it slow off the mark

Steer from tiller or from inside wheel.


Compromise-sure. Fits me & my N45deg climate nicely.


Cheers/ Len
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Old 01-07-2015, 14:22   #25
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

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. . . but then again you could say that any sailing boat fitted with an auxillary motor is a capable motor sailor.:
I think you can absolutely say that. Modern cruising boats are certainly motor sailors, or even motor boats, with auxilary sail, if you want to speak accurately. What percentage of miles do you do under sail and how many under motor?

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Old 01-07-2015, 14:31   #26
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

I guess is what lights your fire? I can't see all of the degrading I see of others preferences?
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Old 01-07-2015, 14:40   #27
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

Some people have mistakenly called my boat a motorsailer. It is pure motor vessel, however. The sails are to help stabilize the boat during certain wave and wind conditions. They can add half a knot of speed with a decent beam wind if operating at less than hull speed.


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Old 01-07-2015, 14:54   #28
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

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Some people have mistakenly called my boat a motorsailer. It is pure motor vessel, however. The sails are to help stabilize the boat during certain wave and wind conditions. They can add half a knot of speed with a decent beam wind if operating at less than hull speed.


Nice vessel.
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Old 02-07-2015, 02:35   #29
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

I guess our boat Saaremaa must be a motorsailer since whenever we are on a coastal passage and not making at least 5 knots on goes the 29 HP Nanni. We have motorsailed the whole of the NSW coast to Queenland and back. This may mean I am not a sailing purest.
The only thing we are missing is the pilot house. It would be lovely to be all snugged up and warm inside like some lucky b's. This must be motorboat envy.
Will this thread be able to compete with "The criteria of blue" that has taken off big time at 700+ posts???
Michael
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Old 02-07-2015, 04:54   #30
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Re: Yacht or Motor Sailer Where's The Line?

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Some people have mistakenly called my boat a motorsailer. It is pure motor vessel, however. The sails are to help stabilize the boat during certain wave and wind conditions. They can add half a knot of speed with a decent beam wind if operating at less than hull speed.


As others have said, that's a nice and interesting vessel.

If I were you, I would try to get more sail power out of that rig.

In stronger winds, you need very little sail area to get all the drive a displacement hull can use.

Almost no cruiser goes upwind seriously anyway, so you will hardly miss upwind ability.

I have worked hard and spent a lot of money making my boat capable of making miles upwind -- making her a good sailing vessel. I spent more than $50,000 on carbon fiber sails and have done a lot of work optimizing the rig. My goal is to be able to make good 5 knots dead upwind in true wind up to 25 knots or so. I don’t know yet whether I’ve achieved it. Sails like these have useful life of maybe 10,000 miles, so $5/mile – could buy a lot of diesel fuel for that.

Wiser people than me just motor, or stay in port, if the wind doesn’t allow for a nice reach or run – “gentlemen don’t go to weather” (final proof that I’m not a gentleman ). So in my opinion, nearly all of our boats are motor sailers, and we just pretend that they’re sailboats. Maybe if we stopped pretending, we could invent a better paradigm for a cruising boat.
Maybe something like this:

1. Much more power, enough to power upwind. I have 100 horsepower for 25 tons loaded – so 200 horsepower? Tankage to match – 2000 liters for a boat my size?

2. Give up optimizing the rig for windward work. That means you can have a ketch .

3. If you’ve given up optimizing for windward work, you can also relax a bit with the keel, which can be longer and shallower. Don’t go overboard, though, and don’t pig up the boat making it overweight. Efficient sailboat hulls are good for efficient motoring, too – see Wind Horse. Keep it as light and narrow as possible.

4. You reduce sail area compared to a pretend “pure sailing boat”, and this only hurts you in lower wind ranges. You will actually sail better in stronger wind with less sail area and a shorter rig. In light wind just add Dr. Diesel. But don’t go overboard with reducing sail area like many “motor sailers”. I think about 14 or 15 is the right SA/D, maybe even 13, but then you need a big light downwind sail for light days when you don’t feel like motoring.

Add a pilothouse, and wouldn’t that be a dandy long-distance cruising vessel?

Alternatively, you can just buy a catamaran, which are superb motorboats right out of the box because of the lack of ballast and very efficient narrow hulls. And redundant power.

I’m still pushing my boat to be a superb true sailing vessel, capable of making thousands of miles upwind when needed, so not quite ready for either of these solutions, but I toy with these ideas. Someday I will get tired of bashing upwind heeled over, I am betting.
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