Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 17-04-2013, 12:07   #61
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
boatman,

I agree that the best thing is to call for assistance. ok then let's not say medical. let's for the sake of argument say the boat had sprung a leak. you can just barely contain it, you NEED to go in. (and raku, this is a hypothetical question - we don't need to know what else we can do - here the question conditions you MUST go in).

the pitch poling would be a serious worry. still - trail a warp to keep the boat steady and the rudder down in the water.

the best thing is to do what time bandit did - i'm just wondering what could be done to avoid the broach

Carstenb, let's not start this up again. You aren't in charge of the content of my posts. Apparently some of what I say irritates you, and I would be sorry for that except for the emails I got saying how much I was missed. Please -- just take me off your radar, and don't nitpick posts I haven't even made.

I was the first one here to say "call for help instead of going in." I'm not nearly as ignorant as you (may) think I am. Just the other day my post for the day on my blog was the dangers of shallow water, and if you're in trouble, move to deeper water.

And (sorry, but it's my post) you don't have to go in because you've sprung a leak. How did you spring a leak? Is it a big hole? Then going in under such trying circumstances might be really, really bad. Is it a small leak? You can probably manage it.

Once one says that one "must" do something, all problem-solving thinking stops. Personally I think that's one MUST not do.

Let it be, Carsten. We're both on the planet, and we're both on this site. I wouldn't dream of telling you what to post or not post, and I ask you to treat me with the same respect. Thanks.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 12:09   #62
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Yacht Broaches

PS -- and what could be done to avoid the broach?

Stay out of the shallow water. Get away from the closeset waves so you have more room to maneuver. Believe it or not, been there and done that.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 12:34   #63
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by EveningTide View Post
My home port is one of these "West Coast" ports so this subject is often on my mind. I come and go and think I know the "right way" but maybe I am over confident. Two issues come to mind. #1- Waves are random, not uniform. #2- Statistical probability, or risk, isn't correctly applied by most people. Say there is a 95% chance you will enter port with no trouble. Then you enter year after year and have no problems so you now say, "I guess I was wrong- it's safer than I thought." This way of thinking is common, not necessarily correct. Each time is an independant event with it's own set of conditions. It's pretty certain the odds will catch up with you eventually.

Well, you say, the conditions have changed because I am more experienced now. Unless you are very careful over confidence and random waves will more than compensate for your experience. Very experienced Skippers seem to eventually run into trouble.

That was brilliant.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 16:12   #64
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
... i'm just wondering what could be done to avoid the broach
OK, I'm taking your qualification to heart: I'm taking it as beyond question that in the situation under consideration, all conceivable alternatives to entering this particular bar are even worse

(as at the end of "Sheila in the Wind", but even more so in the harrowing sequel whose title I forget -but it might have been "Business in Great Waters")

Anything you tow is very much a desperation measure, and although it's a good point to raise, I think it's almost always going to be a bad idea.

Having been involved with river bars on several occasions, once being pulled off by a rescue vessel and once self rescued, I've given this quite a bit of thought on and off over the years.

Firstly, let me declare that a swing keeler is the only sort of sailboat I would ever consider chancing on a dangerous bar, myself.

I did once contemplate whether towing a drag device might have a fighting chance of helping, if it were something along the lines of a Seabrake.

In case anyone's not struck it, this is a speed-sensitive FRP drogue, looking like the top stage on a moon rocket, with opening flaps - which means there's little resistance at normal speed, which is important to enable catching a wave when appropriate, and to minimise the time spent in the break zone.

These have worked well in tricky situations offshore, like when P. Blake and M. Quilter sailed their wing-masted tri, Steinlager I, around Australia. They took a hammering on several occasions and as I recall at least once they were unable to slow the boat sufficiently for control because of the wingmast, so they used the Seabrake. It did the job, but I seem to remember them saying it got damaged in the process.

I frankly think that even one of these, towed across a bar, would be likely to (almost literally) bite you in the bum. I can imagine a wave a couple back in the sequence catching the Seabrake and throwing it forward, with every possibility of tangling the warp around the prop. The brakes would not come on with a loose warp, in fact the reverse is true.

If I was truly desperate, and had time to rig it up, and was on a boat which could handle the warp and wave-dump loads, the only thing I'd consider towing would be the main anchor chain

For this to provide any benefit it would need to be unfashionably heavy in relation to the boat, and long enough to provide a steadying drag.

For instance, my main chain for an 11m boat is 70m of 12mm chain, weighing a quarter of a tonne. I think it's plenty heavy, but possibly on the short side for this idea to work in truly challenging conditions. I do have a collection of three-link shots of big stud-link chain which could be hitched to the tail end, though...

I'm thinking in terms of towing it along the bottom, but with no anchor on the end .... this would not be prone to being thrown forward and catching the prop.

Thinking out loud here: in order to be able to catch a wave, it might be possible, having made the bitter end fast to a central towing bitt (which would have to be strong to cope with shock loads) that one could hang several separate loops over the stern, the one closest to the transom being at the inboard end of the chain

Each loop would be secured with a separate sacrificial pendant of 5mm cordage, so that initially there was only a small tail of chain being dragged along the bottom.

Ideally the loops would be clear of the bottom, at least entering the break zone. This means the chain would not unduly slow the boat in the outer regions of the break zone, and at hull speed the hydrodynamic drag would not be of great consequence to a well-powered boat.

A totally reliable, cool calm and collected crewmember with a sharp serrated knife, ideally a big-wave surfer with good lungs, having secured him or herself with several harness tethers, would be detailed to free each loop in sequence, on command from the helm. That command would be given at moments when the helm wanted to actively catch a particular wave, or alternatively when a wave threatened to rise to broach-causing proportions.

Prior to the loops being released, shifting that much weight aft might even help keep the rudder(s) in the water (minimal effect here, though, unless the stern was petite, in which case the whole idea of shooting a bar, in an underpowered displacement vessel, is almost certainly suicidal), and perhaps more realistically might help prevent the forefoot from pigrooting.

Each release would offer momentary respite and then a relatively sudden increase in drag, hopefully at the moment juste where the boat is starting to think about misbehaving, turning her head slightly to the side like a doubtful steeplechaser refusing the jump. Even a small tug astern might be enough to make a difference at this point in the broach.

If the chain becomes a liability, the attachment to the bitts should also be a lashing so the whole thing can be got rid of.

I'm not offering this as a serious proposition, let alone a worked out or tested method. It's a thought experiment, which hopefully might spark some small inspiration for/from someone else who might someday read this, someone who has broached on a few bars and knows what can happen.

Certainly, in my experience, there are always strong signals ahead of time that a broach is imminent, although they may not be evident to those who have not had the misfortune to have done lots of broaching (which probably implies either having raced in the IOR era, or sailed in small boats in too much breeze, or preferably both) ...

Other ideas, which 99% of readers will not be able to try:

The first is applicable to swing keelers.

Swing the keel as far aft as it will go while still providing a bit of a pre-skeg. If you've got a deep rudder, or preferably two deep rudders, the resulting 'fletching' effect may provide some assistance in averting a broach. Certainly in breaking seas offshore this is so, but shallow water breakers are not the same kind of beast, and there's not a strong body of data to support any conclusions.

If there are aft daggerboards (eg intended for running off), of course these should be down.

The second is truly grasping at straws and is not a serious suggestion in any way:

Given a strong onshore breeze, it occurs to me that a decent sized modern-canopy, stable-flying kite, as you might use for a heavy landyacht, would pull from the right place. It would also go up to where there was more breeze than the surface. However, strong onshore breezes, unless there's also a strong ingoing tide, pretty much rule out bar crossings, so there's so many holes which would have to line up in this particular Swiss cheese that it's included as firewood for the flame wars this post will probably ignite.

I may not be near a computer to defend this post, and even if I am, I'll probably not bother. It's not intended to be defensible.
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 16:21   #65
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,208
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
OK, I'm taking your qualification to heart: I'm taking it as beyond question that in the situation under consideration, all conceivable alternatives to entering this particular bar are even worse

(as at the end of "Sheila in the Wind", but even more so in the harrowing sequel whose title I forget -but it might have been "Business in Great Waters")

Anything you tow is very much a desperation measure, and although it's a good point to raise, I think it's almost always going to be a bad idea.

Having been involved with river bars on several occasions, once being pulled off by a rescue vessel and once self rescued, I've given this quite a bit of thought on and off over the years.

Firstly, let me declare that a swing keeler is the only sort of sailboat I would ever consider chancing on a dangerous bar, myself.

I did once contemplate whether towing a drag device might have a fighting chance of helping, if it were something along the lines of a Seabrake.

In case anyone's not struck it, this is a speed-sensitive FRP drogue, looking like the top stage on a moon rocket, with opening flaps - which means there's little resistance at normal speed, which is important to enable catching a wave when appropriate, and to minimise the time spent in the break zone.

These have worked well in tricky situations offshore, like when P. Blake and M. Quilter sailed their wing-masted tri, Steinlager I, around Australia. They took a hammering on several occasions and as I recall at least once they were unable to slow the boat sufficiently for control because of the wingmast, so they used the Seabrake. It did the job, but I seem to remember them saying it got damaged in the process.

I frankly think that even one of these, towed across a bar, would be likely to (almost literally) bite you in the bum. I can imagine a wave a couple back in the sequence catching the Seabrake and throwing it forward, with every possibility of tangling the warp around the prop. The brakes would not come on with a loose warp, in fact the reverse is true.

If I was truly desperate, and had time to rig it up, and was on a boat which could handle the warp and wave-dump loads, the only thing I'd consider towing would be the main anchor chain

For this to provide any benefit it would need to be unfashionably heavy in relation to the boat, and long enough to provide a steadying drag.

For instance, my main chain for an 11m boat is 70m of 12mm chain, weighing a quarter of a tonne. I think it's plenty heavy, but possibly on the short side for this idea to work in truly challenging conditions. I do have a collection of three-link shots of big stud-link chain which could be hitched to the tail end, though...

I'm thinking in terms of towing it along the bottom, but with no anchor on the end .... this would not be prone to being thrown forward and catching the prop.

Thinking out loud here: in order to be able to catch a wave, it might be possible, having made the bitter end fast to a central towing bitt (which would have to be strong to cope with shock loads) that one could hang several separate loops over the stern, the one closest to the transom being at the inboard end of the chain

Each loop would be secured with a separate sacrificial pendant of 5mm cordage, so that initially there was only a small tail of chain being dragged along the bottom.

Ideally the loops would be clear of the bottom, at least entering the break zone. This means the chain would not unduly slow the boat in the outer regions of the break zone, and at hull speed the hydrodynamic drag would not be of great consequence to a well-powered boat.

A totally reliable, cool calm and collected crewmember with a sharp serrated knife, ideally a big-wave surfer with good lungs, having secured him or herself with several harness tethers, would be detailed to free each loop in sequence, on command from the helm. That command would be given at moments when the helm wanted to actively catch a particular wave, or alternatively when a wave threatened to rise to broach-causing proportions.

Prior to the loops being released, shifting that much weight aft might even help keep the rudder(s) in the water (minimal effect here, though, unless the stern was petite, in which case the whole idea of shooting a bar, in an underpowered displacement vessel, is almost certainly suicidal), and perhaps more realistically might help prevent the forefoot from pigrooting.

Each release would offer momentary respite and then a relatively sudden increase in drag, hopefully at the moment juste where the boat is starting to think about misbehaving, turning her head slightly to the side like a doubtful steeplechaser refusing the jump. Even a small tug astern might be enough to make a difference at this point in the broach.

If the chain becomes a liability, the attachment to the bitts should also be a lashing so the whole thing can be got rid of.

I'm not offering this as a serious proposition, let alone a worked out or tested method. It's a thought experiment, which hopefully might spark some small inspiration for/from someone else who might someday read this, someone who has broached on a few bars and knows what can happen.

Certainly, in my experience, there are always strong signals ahead of time that a broach is imminent, although they may not be evident to those who have not had the misfortune to have done lots of broaching (which probably implies either having raced in the IOR era, or sailed in small boats in too much breeze, or preferably both) ...

Other ideas, which 99% of readers will not be able to try:

The first is applicable to swing keelers.

Swing the keel as far aft as it will go while still providing a bit of a pre-skeg. If you've got a deep rudder, or preferably two deep rudders, the resulting 'fletching' effect may provide some assistance in averting a broach. Certainly in breaking seas offshore this is so, but shallow water breakers are not the same kind of beast, and there's not a strong body of data to support any conclusions.

If there are aft daggerboards (eg intended for running off), of course these should be down.

The second is truly grasping at straws and is not a serious suggestion in any way:

Given a strong onshore breeze, it occurs to me that a decent sized modern-canopy, stable-flying kite, as you might use for a heavy landyacht, would pull from the right place. It would also go up to where there was more breeze than the surface. However, strong onshore breezes, unless there's also a strong ingoing tide, pretty much rule out bar crossings, so there's so many holes which would have to line up in this particular Swiss cheese that it's included as firewood for the flame wars this post will probably ignite.

I may not be near a computer to defend this post, and even if I am, I'll probably not bother. It's not intended to be defensible.
Phew...!!
__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 16:41   #66
Registered User
 
Khagan1227's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Kansas City, MO
Boat: In the hunt again, unknown
Posts: 1,330
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Phew...!!
Ditto!

Khagan1227 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 16:47   #67
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
OK, I'm taking your qualification to heart: I'm taking it as beyond question that in the situation under consideration, all conceivable alternatives to entering this particular bar are even worse

(as at the end of "Sheila in the Wind", but even more so in the harrowing sequel whose title I forget -but it might have been "Business in Great Waters")

Anything you tow is very much a desperation measure, and although it's a good point to raise, I think it's almost always going to be a bad idea.

Having been involved with river bars on several occasions, once being pulled off by a rescue vessel and once self rescued, I've given this quite a bit of thought on and off over the years.

Firstly, let me declare that a swing keeler is the only sort of sailboat I would ever consider chancing on a dangerous bar, myself.

I did once contemplate whether towing a drag device might have a fighting chance of helping, if it were something along the lines of a Seabrake.

In case anyone's not struck it, this is a speed-sensitive FRP drogue, looking like the top stage on a moon rocket, with opening flaps - which means there's little resistance at normal speed, which is important to enable catching a wave when appropriate, and to minimise the time spent in the break zone.

These have worked well in tricky situations offshore, like when P. Blake and M. Quilter sailed their wing-masted tri, Steinlager I, around Australia. They took a hammering on several occasions and as I recall at least once they were unable to slow the boat sufficiently for control because of the wingmast, so they used the Seabrake. It did the job, but I seem to remember them saying it got damaged in the process.

I frankly think that even one of these, towed across a bar, would be likely to (almost literally) bite you in the bum. I can imagine a wave a couple back in the sequence catching the Seabrake and throwing it forward, with every possibility of tangling the warp around the prop. The brakes would not come on with a loose warp, in fact the reverse is true.

If I was truly desperate, and had time to rig it up, and was on a boat which could handle the warp and wave-dump loads, the only thing I'd consider towing would be the main anchor chain

For this to provide any benefit it would need to be unfashionably heavy in relation to the boat, and long enough to provide a steadying drag.

For instance, my main chain for an 11m boat is 70m of 12mm chain, weighing a quarter of a tonne. I think it's plenty heavy, but possibly on the short side for this idea to work in truly challenging conditions. I do have a collection of three-link shots of big stud-link chain which could be hitched to the tail end, though...

I'm thinking in terms of towing it along the bottom, but with no anchor on the end .... this would not be prone to being thrown forward and catching the prop.

Thinking out loud here: in order to be able to catch a wave, it might be possible, having made the bitter end fast to a central towing bitt (which would have to be strong to cope with shock loads) that one could hang several separate loops over the stern, the one closest to the transom being at the inboard end of the chain

Each loop would be secured with a separate sacrificial pendant of 5mm cordage, so that initially there was only a small tail of chain being dragged along the bottom.

Ideally the loops would be clear of the bottom, at least entering the break zone. This means the chain would not unduly slow the boat in the outer regions of the break zone, and at hull speed the hydrodynamic drag would not be of great consequence to a well-powered boat.

A totally reliable, cool calm and collected crewmember with a sharp serrated knife, ideally a big-wave surfer with good lungs, having secured him or herself with several harness tethers, would be detailed to free each loop in sequence, on command from the helm. That command would be given at moments when the helm wanted to actively catch a particular wave, or alternatively when a wave threatened to rise to broach-causing proportions.

Prior to the loops being released, shifting that much weight aft might even help keep the rudder(s) in the water (minimal effect here, though, unless the stern was petite, in which case the whole idea of shooting a bar, in an underpowered displacement vessel, is almost certainly suicidal), and perhaps more realistically might help prevent the forefoot from pigrooting.

Each release would offer momentary respite and then a relatively sudden increase in drag, hopefully at the moment juste where the boat is starting to think about misbehaving, turning her head slightly to the side like a doubtful steeplechaser refusing the jump. Even a small tug astern might be enough to make a difference at this point in the broach.

If the chain becomes a liability, the attachment to the bitts should also be a lashing so the whole thing can be got rid of.

I'm not offering this as a serious proposition, let alone a worked out or tested method. It's a thought experiment, which hopefully might spark some small inspiration for/from someone else who might someday read this, someone who has broached on a few bars and knows what can happen.

Certainly, in my experience, there are always strong signals ahead of time that a broach is imminent, although they may not be evident to those who have not had the misfortune to have done lots of broaching (which probably implies either having raced in the IOR era, or sailed in small boats in too much breeze, or preferably both) ...

Other ideas, which 99% of readers will not be able to try:

The first is applicable to swing keelers.

Swing the keel as far aft as it will go while still providing a bit of a pre-skeg. If you've got a deep rudder, or preferably two deep rudders, the resulting 'fletching' effect may provide some assistance in averting a broach. Certainly in breaking seas offshore this is so, but shallow water breakers are not the same kind of beast, and there's not a strong body of data to support any conclusions.

If there are aft daggerboards (eg intended for running off), of course these should be down.

The second is truly grasping at straws and is not a serious suggestion in any way:

Given a strong onshore breeze, it occurs to me that a decent sized modern-canopy, stable-flying kite, as you might use for a heavy landyacht, would pull from the right place. It would also go up to where there was more breeze than the surface. However, strong onshore breezes, unless there's also a strong ingoing tide, pretty much rule out bar crossings, so there's so many holes which would have to line up in this particular Swiss cheese that it's included as firewood for the flame wars this post will probably ignite.

I may not be near a computer to defend this post, and even if I am, I'll probably not bother. It's not intended to be defensible.

It's all very well thought out, but man ... to reason all that out while in a churning, shallow sea with potential broaches going on ...

I would not want to put drogues out in shallow, rocky water.
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 17:42   #68
Registered User
 
DumnMad's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Nelson NZ; boat in Brisbane
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,247
Re: Yacht Broaches

Boatman61"The skinny I got today in Fig was that they called in while still over the horizon and were told the Port was closed.. nothing more was heard until a couple of hours later when they tried to make the entrance.. from here I can only surmise they hit hard as they lost the mast... they then tried to motor out of trouble but had not cleared the wreckage and fouled the prop in short order leaving them helpless and being driven on shore"

Did they broach first or hit the bottom first?
__________________
DumnMad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 18:26   #69
Freelance Delivery Skipper..
 
boatman61's Avatar

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: UK/Portugal
Posts: 20,208
Images: 2
Send a message via Skype™ to boatman61
pirate Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumnMad View Post

Did they broach first or hit the bottom first?
Remember the story was maybe 4 days old by the time I heard it so some 'refining' should be allowed for..
I don't know the exact order of things but my feeling is they must have hit bottom 1st and lost the mast with the shock of impact... from what I understood they then tried to run the engine (dunno how successful that would have been after a roll over in shallow waters with 5 metre swell/waves also think there would have been more hull damage if the mast had been lost in a roll)...
But they fouled the prop on the un-cleared stays and rigging trailing over the side with the mast... if the rudder was damaged with the first hit they were screwed from then on... rolling was just a matter of time.. but as I said.. until the skipper and crew tell their story.. and the Policia Maritimo.. its all conjecture and hearsay..

__________________


Born To Be Wild
boatman61 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 18:34   #70
Registered User
 
DumnMad's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Nelson NZ; boat in Brisbane
Boat: 45ft Ketch
Posts: 1,247
Re: Yacht Broaches

Thanks B61. So waiting for higher tide might have been more helpful than dangling things over the back. We wait for the reports.
__________________
DumnMad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 18:34   #71
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Remember the story was maybe 4 days old by the time I heard it so some 'refining' should be allowed for..
I don't know the exact order of things but my feeling is they must have hit bottom 1st and lost the mast with the shock of impact... from what I understood they then tried to run the engine (dunno how successful that would have been after a roll over in shallow waters with 5 metre swell/waves also think there would have been more hull damage if the mast had been lost in a roll)...
But they fouled the prop on the un-cleared stays and rigging trailing over the side with the mast... if the rudder was damaged with the first hit they were screwed from then on... rolling was just a matter of time.. but as I said.. until the skipper and crew tell their story.. and the Policia Maritimo.. its all conjecture and hearsay..

But it's all possible. How could they possibly clear away all the rigging, and be sure they got it all, in those circumstances?
__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 20:05   #72
Registered User
 
jeanathon's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: WNC mountains U.S.
Boat: 1968 Hinterhoel Redwing
Posts: 513
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
If I gave the impression that I was trying to crucify the Skipper I apologize most sincerely...
...
How you chose to interpret my posts is down to you... all I know is what I'm trying to get across.. me just a crap 'writer'..
If you would prefer 'respectful silence' feel free...
Boat,
I did not mean to infer you were crucifying the skipper. The general mood of all the posters were headed that way. I was merely trying to point out a reason for a call to the harbormaster then coming in anyway. Someone else since posted it might have been a different boat calling in.
The long and the short of it is I have no experience with this and cannot add to it other than already stated maybe with the exception of "Aren't all ports of Portugal on the "western coast"?
__________________
Let's ban together to ban sillycone....
jeanathon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 21:07   #73
CF Adviser
 
Pelagic's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Van Helleman Schooner 65ft StarGazer
Posts: 6,890
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
.....But just for the sake of discussion, let's say you HAD to come in for some reason, say medical emergency.

My contention would be that if they were trailing warps or a small drogue, there is a good chance they would not have broached.....
Do you agree? I don't see any other method of safely entering
Totally theoretical discussion, ……but if it was a life and death decision and no help or communication shore side was possible…….

If I could move the casualty and I had a good RIB with dependable, strong and responsive outboard, I would consider running the surf on a planning hull to get the person ashore.

Needs expert reading and boat control... but that is a viable option if you had no other choice

Yacht would stay in deep water until Port was opened
__________________
Pelagic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 21:29   #74
Registered User
 
cheoah's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: North Carolina, USA
Boat: Moccasins and pony
Posts: 996
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by EveningTide View Post
My home port is one of these "West Coast" ports so this subject is often on my mind. I come and go and think I know the "right way" but maybe I am over confident. Two issues come to mind. #1- Waves are random, not uniform. #2- Statistical probability, or risk, isn't correctly applied by most people. Say there is a 95% chance you will enter port with no trouble. Then you enter year after year and have no problems so you now say, "I guess I was wrong- it's safer than I thought." This way of thinking is common, not necessarily correct. Each time is an independant event with it's own set of conditions. It's pretty certain the odds will catch up with you eventually.

Well, you say, the conditions have changed because I am more experienced now. Unless you are very careful over confidence and random waves will more than compensate for your experience. Very experienced Skippers seem to eventually run into trouble.
I guess this applies to any passage, where despite reasonable decision making, sh&t happens. But how many passages end in tragedy from just random waves or properly running the channel of an open inlet?

Very experienced skippers no doubt run into trouble, but do they run closed inlets with significant wind against current, based on experience? The two approaches are stark: one boat blogs about handling it one way, without any real hardship - clipping away at 8 knots - the other really doesn't live to tell about it. I remember putting out to sea the first time out Cape Fear, and literally had no clue that in those moderate conditions, with 15 knots of wind against maybe 3-4 knots of current, waves could be so big and steep. I remember thinking, "Do people do this? Is this cool?" I remember trying to dodge my mates vomit and wondering if my boat might actually break in half the way it was pounding. This is fun?

Will I ever consciously do something like run Fig in those conditions? Not on your life. Can I imagine a situation where I'm not really making good decisions, or in this case, making really bad decisions? I guess. I have a decent imagination. REally though, it seems terrifying, and more so since I've read this thread.

Understandable the organization would not highlight the details of the communications with the harbor master - as it does make the captain seem cavalier, and is baffling, really. Sucks it had to unfold like that, with the captain and "saviour" perishing.
__________________
cheoah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 21:45   #75
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tampa Bay area
Boat: Hunter 31'
Posts: 5,731
Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by cheoah View Post
I guess this applies to any passage, where despite reasonable decision making, sh&t happens. But how many passages end in tragedy from just random waves or properly running the channel of an open inlet?

Very experienced skippers no doubt run into trouble, but do they run closed inlets with significant wind against current, based on experience? The two approaches are stark: one boat blogs about handling it one way, without any real hardship - clipping away at 8 knots - the other really doesn't live to tell about it. I remember putting out to sea the first time out Cape Fear, and literally had no clue that in those moderate conditions, with 15 knots of wind against maybe 3-4 knots of current, waves could be so big and steep. I remember thinking, "Do people do this? Is this cool?" I remember trying to dodge my mates vomit and wondering if my boat might actually break in half the way it was pounding. This is fun?

Will I ever consciously do something like run Fig in those conditions? Not on your life. Can I imagine a situation where I'm not really making good decisions, or in this case, making really bad decisions? I guess. I have a decent imagination. REally though, it seems terrifying, and more so since I've read this thread.

Understandable the organization would not highlight the details of the communications with the harbor master - as it does make the captain seem cavalier, and is baffling, really. Sucks it had to unfold like that, with the captain and "saviour" perishing.

Does it have to be a tragedy? If you count accidents where someone gets hurt or the boat gets damaged, the number would be much higher. For instance, it's a first-rate way to lose an exposed rudder. Then you're in very bad water without steerage, and things can get really bad.
__________________

__________________
Rakuflames is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
yacht

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Crew Wanted: Surfing Cruise - Sumatra, Banyak, Nias, Telos surfmachine Crew Archives 21 02-08-2012 17:51
Yacht rescued off Norfolk Island Australia BlueSun Cruising News & Events 6 09-06-2012 00:31
Yacht Missing - 'Swan of Zwijn' svBeBe Europe & Mediterranean 9 10-11-2011 09:41
Crew Available: Looking to Crew: Living Opposite Southport Yacht Club, Gold Coast bren776 Crew Archives 0 25-10-2011 00:37



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:23.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.