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Old 17-04-2013, 08:23   #46
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Re: Yacht Broaches

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Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
Its been mentioned about grumpy crew... a good skipper should 'never' be influenced by the crew IMHO... that's why one is allegedly 'Skipper'.. a superior knowledge and experience of seamanship..
Its not a frickin democracy out there.. you want 'Democracy' join a political party and stay the hell away from a boat I command..
I'm very laid back.. up to a point... and that point is reached when people try to make/enforce by threat stupid decisions that may result in MY death...
Ports close for good reason..

May I quote you?
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Old 17-04-2013, 08:49   #47
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Re: Yacht Broaches

boatman

I've been to this area and I agree, sometimes the sea here are beyond belief. When the harbour says "closed" they mean it.

But just for the sake of discussion, let's say you HAD to come in for some reason, say medical emergency.

My contention would be that if they were trailing warps or a small drogue, there is a good chance they would not have broached. I freely admit that the boat would be difficult to steer and they would have to get the line-up for the harbour spot on, but they would not broach.

once inside they could either recover the drogue, or cut it away. Assuming they might want to recover later they could tie a fender onto the drogue end and recover when the seas died down.

Do you agree? I don't see any other method of safely entering
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Old 17-04-2013, 09:28   #48
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Re: Yacht Broaches

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
boatman

I've been to this area and I agree, sometimes the sea here are beyond belief. When the harbour says "closed" they mean it.

But just for the sake of discussion, let's say you HAD to come in for some reason, say medical emergency.

My contention would be that if they were trailing warps or a small drogue, there is a good chance they would not have broached. I freely admit that the boat would be difficult to steer and they would have to get the line-up for the harbour spot on, but they would not broach.

once inside they could either recover the drogue, or cut it away. Assuming they might want to recover later they could tie a fender onto the drogue end and recover when the seas died down.

Do you agree? I don't see any other method of safely entering

I think we all like to solve our own problems, but I think if they had a medical emergency they should have stayed in deep water and called for someone to get the sick or injured person.

I know a guy who had a heart attack on his boat. His friend frantically motored the boat back to the club -- for 90 minutes -- and then called 911.

They were close to shore and we have excellent SAR here. The 90 minute delay was unnecessary.

If it were me who were sick or injured, I wouldn't want the captain trying to enter a closed harbor in dangerous waters to save me. As we can see, it put many more people in harm's way.

If you go sailing, things happen and you won't get to help as quickly as you would on land. That's one reality of sailing. But don't put other people in serious risk over me. Just call for help.
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Old 17-04-2013, 09:56   #49
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pirate Re: Yacht Broaches

Quote:
Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
boatman

I've been to this area and I agree, sometimes the sea here are beyond belief. When the harbour says "closed" they mean it.

But just for the sake of discussion, let's say you HAD to come in for some reason, say medical emergency.

My contention would be that if they were trailing warps or a small drogue, there is a good chance they would not have broached. I freely admit that the boat would be difficult to steer and they would have to get the line-up for the harbour spot on, but they would not broach.

once inside they could either recover the drogue, or cut it away. Assuming they might want to recover later they could tie a fender onto the drogue end and recover when the seas died down.

Do you agree? I don't see any other method of safely entering
To be honest I would have radio'd for assistance if there was a crew member in need of urgent medical attention..
I've ridden the rail in the past... once into Salcombe... also across Cape Lookout down into Beaufort when I did bottom but got away... and once into here.. Fig da Foz.
Its un-nerving watching that depth meter tick down to your draught and your waiting for the pitch pole... no amount of trailed warps are gonna save you when you bottom out... survival becomes 60/40 against with the odds creeping ever upwards
and the injuries start from that instant on..
No mate.. I'd have stayed out and carried on N or S depending on my destination... as I said... 'Time Bandit' made the right judgement call in my view...
I be stooped.. but not suicidal..
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Old 17-04-2013, 10:04   #50
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Re: Yacht Broaches

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What I do try, is to get across the gravity of certain aspects of sailing and point out in spite of the 'Blue Water Capable' crap that's blathered on about its the coastal sailing that's more likely to kill you... and how to best avoid it happening to you...
Therein lies the wisdom of a man thats knows what hes talking about

PS. I posted the report that mentions a "botched recovery". I didnt use the term myself. Its a harsh term for a brave man who gave his life rescuing others.

dave
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Old 17-04-2013, 10:27   #51
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Re: Yacht Broaches

Thanks Boatman61,
one correction, the skipper wasn't the victim.
Here is the latest news from the "Well-Sailing" school from April 15.

English Version: Distress of SY Meri Tuuli The Management of WELL SAILING and Nordtoern, as well as all Staff Members, mourn the death of one crew member of their schooling vessel Meri Tuuli and a Portuguese Police Officer from the Figueira da Foz Inshore Rescue Team. During the afternoon of the 10April 2013, in a South-Westerly wind of four to five Beaufort, and whilst on the approach to the Portuguese harbour of Figueira da Foz, the sailing yacht Meri Tuuli (an X-442, 13.5m long vessel) was capsized by a sudden and unexpected, very high wave. All five crew members were washed overboard. All sailors were wearing life vests. The skipper managed to get back on board and launched a distress flare. Two Portuguese rescue vessels left harbour immediately. Together with the skipper, they coordinated the rescue of the crew members. After all crew members were retrieved, the skipper prepared a towing line for Meri Tuuli. At the same time, one of the rescue vessels capsized in another very high wave. The preparation for towing was abandoned immediately in order to come to the aid of the two people in the water and the rescue vessel. The capsizing of the rescue vessel left one of our crew members and a Portuguese Police Officer dead. One Crew member is injured but their injuries are not life threatening and they are still being treated in a Portuguese hospital. The Meri Tuuli’s skipper is a longstanding, experienced and safety conscious employee and colleague. His qualifications are considerably higher than that required for such a commercially operated yacht. The sailing yacht is, of course, licensed for worldwide travel by the German “BG Verkehr”, and her standard for safety equipment is well above that required. Harbours on the Portuguese West coast are considered difficult to approach. The skipper was well aware of this situation. After careful consideration of all known circumstances, in his opinion the prevailing conditions allowed for an approach to the harbour. The yacht was on her way from Lisbon to Porto, with Figueira da Foz as a stopover. In Porto, there was a crew change scheduled. The accident is being investigated by the authorities in charge, and we naturally assure them of our fullest cooperation during the investigation into the circumstances behind this terrible tragedy. In parallel, we will be carrying out our own investigation and will inform the public in due course about our findings. Our deepest sympathies go to the relatives of our crew member, as well as the relatives and colleagues of the dead Police Officer. We are shocked, stunned and full of mourning. For the Nordtoern-Well-Sailing GbR Richard Jeske & Thomas Dühren


I says nothing about an emergency but it was a "scheduled" stop.
Seems you were close with the Teutonic pride

Martin
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Old 17-04-2013, 10:28   #52
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Re: Yacht Broaches

boatman,

I agree that the best thing is to call for assistance. ok then let's not say medical. let's for the sake of argument say the boat had sprung a leak. you can just barely contain it, you NEED to go in. (and raku, this is a hypothetical question - we don't need to know what else we can do - here the question conditions you MUST go in).

the pitch poling would be a serious worry. still - trail a warp to keep the boat steady and the rudder down in the water.

the best thing is to do what time bandit did - i'm just wondering what could be done to avoid the broach





Quote:
Originally Posted by boatman61 View Post
To be honest I would have radio'd for assistance if there was a crew member in need of urgent medical attention..
I've ridden the rail in the past... once into Salcombe... also across Cape Lookout down into Beaufort when I did bottom but got away... and once into here.. Fig da Foz.
Its un-nerving watching that depth meter tick down to your draught and your waiting for the pitch pole... no amount of trailed warps are gonna save you when you bottom out... survival becomes 60/40 against with the odds creeping ever upwards
and the injuries start from that instant on..
No mate.. I'd have stayed out and carried on N or S depending on my destination... as I said... 'Time Bandit' made the right judgement call in my view...
I be stooped.. but not suicidal..
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Old 17-04-2013, 10:30   #53
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Re: Yacht Broaches

says nothing about calling the harbour and being told the door was closed.




Quote:
Originally Posted by CHAZ View Post
Thanks Boatman61,
one correction, the skipper wasn't the victim.
Here is the latest news from the "Well-Sailing" school from April 15.

English Version: Distress of SY Meri Tuuli The Management of WELL SAILING and Nordtoern, as well as all Staff Members, mourn the death of one crew member of their schooling vessel Meri Tuuli and a Portuguese Police Officer from the Figueira da Foz Inshore Rescue Team. During the afternoon of the 10April 2013, in a South-Westerly wind of four to five Beaufort, and whilst on the approach to the Portuguese harbour of Figueira da Foz, the sailing yacht Meri Tuuli (an X-442, 13.5m long vessel) was capsized by a sudden and unexpected, very high wave. All five crew members were washed overboard. All sailors were wearing life vests. The skipper managed to get back on board and launched a distress flare. Two Portuguese rescue vessels left harbour immediately. Together with the skipper, they coordinated the rescue of the crew members. After all crew members were retrieved, the skipper prepared a towing line for Meri Tuuli. At the same time, one of the rescue vessels capsized in another very high wave. The preparation for towing was abandoned immediately in order to come to the aid of the two people in the water and the rescue vessel. The capsizing of the rescue vessel left one of our crew members and a Portuguese Police Officer dead. One Crew member is injured but their injuries are not life threatening and they are still being treated in a Portuguese hospital. The Meri Tuuli’s skipper is a longstanding, experienced and safety conscious employee and colleague. His qualifications are considerably higher than that required for such a commercially operated yacht. The sailing yacht is, of course, licensed for worldwide travel by the German “BG Verkehr”, and her standard for safety equipment is well above that required. Harbours on the Portuguese West coast are considered difficult to approach. The skipper was well aware of this situation. After careful consideration of all known circumstances, in his opinion the prevailing conditions allowed for an approach to the harbour. The yacht was on her way from Lisbon to Porto, with Figueira da Foz as a stopover. In Porto, there was a crew change scheduled. The accident is being investigated by the authorities in charge, and we naturally assure them of our fullest cooperation during the investigation into the circumstances behind this terrible tragedy. In parallel, we will be carrying out our own investigation and will inform the public in due course about our findings. Our deepest sympathies go to the relatives of our crew member, as well as the relatives and colleagues of the dead Police Officer. We are shocked, stunned and full of mourning. For the Nordtoern-Well-Sailing GbR Richard Jeske & Thomas Dühren


I says nothing about an emergency but it was a "scheduled" stop.
Seems you were close with the Teutonic pride

Martin
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Old 17-04-2013, 10:35   #54
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Re: Yacht Broaches

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The Meri Tuuli’s skipper is a longstanding, experienced and safety conscious employee and colleague. His qualifications are considerably higher than that required for such a commercially operated yacht. The sailing yacht is, of course, licensed for worldwide travel by the German “BG Verkehr”, and her standard for safety equipment is well above that required. Harbours on the Portuguese West coast are considered difficult to approach. The skipper was well aware of this situation. After careful consideration of all known circumstances, in his opinion the prevailing conditions allowed for an approach to the harbour.

Talk about trying to justify stupidity after the event. I love the "After careful consideration of all known circumstances" bit. I hate to see the decision process this guy does every day.
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Old 17-04-2013, 10:39   #55
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pirate Re: Yacht Broaches

Only variation to the story locally is the omission that the port was closed and stated as such over the VHF (dunno if they called or whether this was the call from Time Bandit.. if they were not monitoring VHF they'd be unaware).. also they say here that all the crew + skipper were on the RIB when it went over.
In reality we won't have the 'full story' till the inquest
Thanks for the 'update' Chaz..
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Old 17-04-2013, 10:53   #56
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pirate Re: Yacht Broaches

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Originally Posted by carstenb View Post
boatman,

the best thing is to do what time bandit did - i'm just wondering what could be done to avoid the broach
Become a True Believer in every faith on earth and pray to all the gods...
To avoid the broach..?
I feel that's mainly down to Good Luck in places like this... really one needs to judge the wave to go in on and the helm ability to ride her in at the right speed.. to slow you'll fall into the following trough and bottom, spin and roll when the next wave comes.. to fast and you overtake... then pitch pole at the bottom.. don't sail.. motor, the sails a final back up if the motor fails.. not the other way round.
There's no 'Magic Formula'.. each entrance/bar has its own unique character and what may work locally won't here.. with a nasty cross current in the wrong place for example that creates X waves..
If a port is closed to commercial fishermen who know the waters.. I damn sure not gonna try and prove how good I am..
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Old 17-04-2013, 10:57   #57
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Re: Yacht Broaches

Anyone that sails that coast knows the dangers of running the port entrances in a big onshore swell. I remember being in Baiona, when the entrance channel was turned in white water breakers and rollers as the onshore swell rose and this is a very wide approach,

There are also several ports where you require a sharp turn to the north round the mole and if your not careful the surf will have you on the beach.

I just cant understand why anyone would try the entrance. I suspect there was pressure on the skipper.

I would agree with Boatman, Ive done hairy white water entrances in a powerful RIB, Id be very very reluctant to try a yacht. ( but then Im a scaredy cat, but a live one!!)


Theres no magic formula, ( trailing warps in a harbour entrance!!!). And like you BM, Ive been in Gijon marina entrance channel in a big gale , waiting for the keel to wack, last-time I did it I ran into the commercial port!!.
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Old 17-04-2013, 11:13   #58
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Re: Yacht Broaches

Having not been there or sailed into this harbor, I have no idea if the skipper made a bad decision or not. I HAVE seen "other" captains make decisions I thought were insane and live to tell the tale. It is very easy to be an arm chair captain and second guess the "other guys" decisions, but unless you are right there, at that very second, with the information they have, chances are you aren't even close to knowing what is going on in his head. To wit:

Recently while out, I made several bad decisions on false assumptions I had that could have led to disaster. As the situation progressively got worse (mostly due to my own poor choices that seemed like really good ideas at the time), I dropped the hook, made sure it held, then sat down, gathered my thoughts (and what was left of my shattered pride) and drank a bottle of water (although I REALLY wanted something a LOT stronger) and planned my next steps. As luck would have it, (these things never seem to happen when no one is around) a friend of mine happened by, saw me and my boat, and stopped to watch the fun. Thankfully, he didn't have the forethought to get his camera out and record the event.

The point here is that I made what I thought were sound decisions in the heat of the moment, but as I sat there sipping my water, I kept saying "what a dumba$$", which in turn reminds me of the quote below:

"It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others." - Unknown
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Old 17-04-2013, 11:19   #59
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Re: Yacht Broaches

My home port is one of these "West Coast" ports so this subject is often on my mind. I come and go and think I know the "right way" but maybe I am over confident. Two issues come to mind. #1- Waves are random, not uniform. #2- Statistical probability, or risk, isn't correctly applied by most people. Say there is a 95% chance you will enter port with no trouble. Then you enter year after year and have no problems so you now say, "I guess I was wrong- it's safer than I thought." This way of thinking is common, not necessarily correct. Each time is an independant event with it's own set of conditions. It's pretty certain the odds will catch up with you eventually.

Well, you say, the conditions have changed because I am more experienced now. Unless you are very careful over confidence and random waves will more than compensate for your experience. Very experienced Skippers seem to eventually run into trouble.
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Old 17-04-2013, 12:06   #60
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pirate Re: Yacht Broaches

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My home port is one of these "West Coast" ports so this subject is often on my mind. I come and go and think I know the "right way" but maybe I am over confident. Two issues come to mind. #1- Waves are random, not uniform. #2- Statistical probability, or risk, isn't correctly applied by most people. Say there is a 95% chance you will enter port with no trouble. Then you enter year after year and have no problems so you now say, "I guess I was wrong- it's safer than I thought." This way of thinking is common, not necessarily correct. Each time is an independant event with it's own set of conditions. It's pretty certain the odds will catch up with you eventually.

Well, you say, the conditions have changed because I am more experienced now. Unless you are very careful over confidence and random waves will more than compensate for your experience. Very experienced Skippers seem to eventually run into trouble.
Well put..
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