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Old 10-08-2009, 22:57   #91
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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Don't underestimate the value of a good conversation...
Thank you!

This thread did exactly what I hoped it would do when I started it: taught me a lot. I think I've acknowledged that throughout and thanked y'all repeatedly for your insight:

- Interior wood can be low maintenance (in contrast with exterior wood).

- Interior fiberglass & plastic can be high maintenance.

- If you need to brighten up a dark all-wood interior just do some painting (with technique tips).

- There are lots of boats out there that have tasteful wooden interiors that aren't dark and dungeony (with beautiful photos)

That's not to say I'm ready to concede the point, much of what I'm hearing doesn't entirely match what I actually see when I look at actual used boats (i.e. beat to crap, waterstained, even rotting woodwork and newer-looking liners and fiberglass). But it certainly helps guide me as I try to learn more.

Those who think this thread is dogmatic or worthless or full of preconceived notions need to look in a mirror. I'm sure as s**t not the one making it that way.

Martin
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Old 10-08-2009, 23:12   #92
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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Another maxi was on the hard here forever the fiberglass plug was deteriorated and cracked. There is no way to get a replacement or even if you could you could not get it isnside the boat with the deck on. Fiberglass repairing is possible but eventually the brittleness and deterioaration will make this a losing game.
So I am curious about this boat. Do builders routinely use inferior materials or resins for the interior fiberglass versus the hull? If the interior is brittle & cracking that would make me worried about the integrity of the whole boat. (Assuming it is a fiberglass hull.) Perhaps the interior pan is not cored so it flexes more and gets brittle?

Do you know how old this boat was? Was it a manufacturing flaw or just the normal service life of the fiberglass?

This is interesting & a bit disconcerting. I agree that marine ply or perhaps cored panels such as Duflex would be the materials of choice to rebuild an interior.

Martin
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Old 10-08-2009, 23:31   #93
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Originally Posted by Sparohok View Post

Do you know how old this boat was? Was it a manufacturing flaw or just the normal service life of the fiberglass?

This is interesting & a bit disconcerting. I agree that marine ply or perhaps cored panels such as Duflex would be the materials of choice to rebuild an interior.

Martin
The boat is probably 28 years old. The interior pan is not "strucural" as you might think. The hull is probably 3/8" thick. The interior form might more likely be described as plastic but it is in fact maybe single layer fiberglass mold.

Think of the type of insert you might get for a shower install in a house. No real structural strength until installed. The brittleness is likely just the heating and cooling over 30 years.

I also think there was an attempt to redo the interior. Step one was pull out all the wood. Step two was leave the boat in the yard and let it fill with water for 3 years.
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Old 11-08-2009, 00:33   #94
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However, wood, and particularly structural plywood, has a strength-to-weight ratio roughly equal to steel or aluminum.
It's interesting, I think there are two different discussions going on in parallel, one is the structural qualities of wood and the other is the aesthetic qualities.

I don't really have anything against wood as a structural material. Balsa and marine ply are each very hard to beat within a large "sweet spot" of costs and engineering requirements. If I maligned those uses I was definitely mistaken.

But the structural arguments are more or less orthogonal to the aesthetic discussion. It does seem to me that the only real connection between the two is emotional, for those who feel that a wood interior gives them a connection to a prior age of wooden boats.

As far as I can tell, in modern sailboats very little of the visible wood is actually structural in any way. In the most beautiful examples posted here, you'll notice that the wood with the greatest structural responsibility is most likely to be painted: for example the bulkheads, timbers and cabinet sides in Ephriam's boat. That's because good structural wood generally ain't pretty wood. Plywood is butt-ugly unless it's faced with expensive veneers. I doubt if the veneer improves the strength to weight ratio, and it decimates the strength to cost ratio!

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As for yacht builder's however, I suspect to ensure their survival, they will stick to what is efficient, reliable, cost effective; and, evidently, preferred.
So here's the problem with your case. What is "efficient, reliable, and cost effective" (structural marine ply and balsa cored composites) is more or less orthogonal to what is aesthetically "preferred" (exotic veneers, solid wood cabinetry). While the former helps meet a price point, the latter certainly does not. I've looked at how much a Morris costs!

Martin
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Old 11-08-2009, 00:44   #95
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The hull is probably 3/8" thick. The interior form might more likely be described as plastic but it is in fact maybe single layer fiberglass mold.
Got it. So for example, if the resin is oxidizing from the surface inwards, the thinner pan will be brittle long before the thicker hull becomes brittle.

I do think if I were the owner, seeing the interior pan breaking down would make me a bit nervous about the hull as well. In general, properly constructed composites seems to have an extremely long, low maintenance life span.

Martin
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Old 11-08-2009, 07:57   #96
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Originally Posted by Sparohok View Post
But the structural arguments are more or less orthogonal to the aesthetic discussion. It does seem to me that the only real connection between the two is emotional, for those who feel that a wood interior gives them a connection to a prior age of wooden boats.

Martin
Prior? Wood boats (both plank-on-frame and cold molded) are being built today. As there is no cost advantage in tooling for mass production, they're usually "one offs" and the material is advantageous in that application. In those applications WYSIWYG so structural members are also often varnished for aesthetic reasons on the interior.

Truth be told, you argument has some built in assumptions. Only if the hull is glass, would then the primary use of wood that you see be aesthetic- not structural as you say. There is usually a weight savings on Al or steel hulls for a wood interior over glass. Plugged interiors on glass boats are very thin: so they're light not by the nature of the material but by the lightness of the scantlings.

FWIW,IIRC, strength-to-weight goes like this: Carbon fiber reinforced plastic, kevlar reinforced plastic, wood, aluminum, glass reinforced plastic, steel. Adding space filling cores improves stiffness in the resin systems but doesn't usually change the order.

I'm not sure what used boats you're looking at, but a rotting interior puts things pretty far toward the bottom of the maintenance scale.

Just my $.02.
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Old 11-08-2009, 08:56   #97
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So here's the problem with your case. What is "efficient, reliable, and cost effective" (structural marine ply and balsa cored composites) is more or less orthogonal to what is aesthetically "preferred" (exotic veneers, solid wood cabinetry). While the former helps meet a price point, the latter certainly does not. I've looked at how much a Morris costs!
The thing that costs is labor. If you build a mold to manufacture parts that are used over and over again it will cost less. Morris does not produce boats this way. To finish a structural ply panel to a high standard requires lots of labor. To cover the same panel with a veneer of some sort takes less. The labor content is the thing that mostly gets over looked...I am sure anybody that has undertaken a project will attest to that.
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Old 11-08-2009, 09:49   #98
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Sparohok:

You have asked some great questions..my comment only came because you seemed to not except and re-argue great answers to those concerns. Water below is an issue for wood interiors no question..But it has been dealt with for decades.

All of us here have kindly told you to buy what you like and enjoy what you buy..also offering suggestions and alternatives as to how to modify wood as found to lighten up the "cave" look that you don't care for...We are all cool with your desire for a plastic interior and as stated, would be my choice as well in a race boat..to me it seems you are bent on convincing us we are outdated and antiquated..that's OK as well but is where my comment came from..

No need to get upset or defencive..You are a valued contributor here with a valued opinion, as I hope I am as well..Its OK to disagree..I do with some posters all the time.

Sorry if my joust at words offended you..that is not my way... and was not my intent..just how I called it as...My opinion only...

You asked questions ...when we do that we have to be prepared for answers that rock our core convictions and yes, get either more entrenched in our beliefs or open to look at options otherwise..You seemed entrenched deeply... like I am with my faith in God...My comment came only from a point of view that the "Question" of my belief need not even be asked..... You seemed so in your convictions on this matter as well..Hence my coment.

Hope that puts light on my remark better now..

As always, I to need to reflect on how I am perceived with what I type out on this key board and have to realize a lot of things are best left unsaid..I apologize for any Ill feelings I created.

Scott
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:14   #99
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it's not the materials

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Originally Posted by Sparohok View Post
Do builders routinely use inferior materials or resins for the interior fiberglass versus the hull?
While they probably use the same materials, they're likely to use a less expensive lay-up process. Where the hull is probably hand-laid, the hull liner may be laid up with a chop gun, which is a much less labor-intensive process. (I'm not speaking here specifically of the Maxi 77, by the way, but any number of smaller production boats.)
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Old 11-08-2009, 10:21   #100
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I guess I'll jump into the fray a bit. Oh Joy started life as a carvel planked mahogany over white oak wooden yacht. She's since been C-Flexed, nicely I might add, effectively making her a plastic hulled boat with wood framing. Her interior is all wood, either ply or mahogany and teak. As you can see below, she is not a dark cave inside, at least not to me.





I know, crappy pictures but I don't have any with the new camera.

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Old 11-08-2009, 16:09   #101
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Martin your assertion that wood is not used for structure as well as beauty is not true for at least a half dozen world class yacht builders

Nautor Swan
Hallberg Rassy
Bavaria
Wauquiz
Jon Meri
Contest

Virtually all the teak ply with is visible in my boat (Contest) is also structural and tabbed into the hull. In most cased the top oil layer of teak is routed away to give a better bond to the glass.

The joinery and finish is world class. The aesthetic of wood in ships has a historical connection. Painting over wood which is not appearance grade was commonly used to both lighten and conceal the less than attractive face of the wood.

Laminating wood with plastic (ply) or painting it is just an inexpensive means and a different aesthetic.

Modernism has tended to look at the materials we use for shelter differently and present us with different possibilities.

Boat interior design is lagging it would seem.
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Old 11-08-2009, 20:10   #102
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Prior? Wood boats (both plank-on-frame and cold molded) are being built today.
Sure they are ... by people are seeking out a connection to a prior age of wooden boats! People still build wooden airplanes too.

(OK, to be fair, cold molding is a reasonably good way to build a boat. I just couldn't resist.)

Martin
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Old 11-08-2009, 21:06   #103
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Martin your assertion that wood is not used for structure as well as beauty is not true for at least a half dozen world class yacht builders
I'll bet the inner plys on those teak bulkheads are meranti or fir or something else which is cheaper, stronger, and not nearly as desirable to the blue blazer set as teak.

If the world class yacht builders wanted to spend even more to make a better structure, they would use cored composite panels with a teak veneer instead of meranti ply with a teak veneer. If they wanted to spend less and make an equally strong but arguably uglier boat, they can skip the teak and paint some meranti ply.

I don't mean to hassle you or your boat -- of which I am transparently envious! I just feel that it helps a rational boat buyer to keep the discussion of aesthetics and structure as seperate as possible (but no more so). In this particular example I still don't feel you've given a reason to conflate them.

Martin
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Old 11-08-2009, 21:18   #104
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Sure they are ... by people are seeking out a connection to a prior age of wooden boats! People still build wooden airplanes too.

(OK, to be fair, cold molding is a reasonably good way to build a boat. I just couldn't resist.)

Martin
Are you speaking of unidirectionally reinforced cellular composite?
I think your romanticism is getting the better of you.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Old 12-08-2009, 09:05   #105
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Originally Posted by Sparohok View Post
Sure they are ... by people are seeking out a connection to a prior age of wooden boats! People still build wooden airplanes too.

(OK, to be fair, cold molding is a reasonably good way to build a boat. I just couldn't resist.)

Martin
Cold molded has nothing to do with a connection to a prior age. It's about strength, weight, and speed.........i2f
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