Wood Interiors - Why?

[svHyLyte]

Sailboats, particularly monohulls, seem to have primarily wood surfaces in the interior. It turns me off and I can't understand why buyers seem to prefer this. I'm sure there are some good reasons but I can't fathom them.

There is no explaining personal preferences--hence the Heinz 57.

However, wood, and particularly structural plywood, has a strength-to-weight ratio roughly equal to steel or aluminum. The energy ratio to produce a panel of given stiffness is 1.0 for steel and .02 for wood. To produce a given compressive strength is 1.0 for Steel .002 for wood. Better, however, is it's strength-to cost ratio which far surpasses other materials and particularly synthetic matrials such as honey-comb cored fibre reinforced panels. It is relatively easily obtained, easily worked, and easily repaired. If one dislikes the natural colour it can be painted in the Herreshoff manner--up to mid-height; or, entirely (although it would be wise to apply an adheasive covering to the panel and then paint that rather than the wood itself so that a future owner that prefers the look of wood will have less difficulty removing the paint!) If one prefers Christian's clorox bottle analogy, one can obtain thin plastic paneling at Home Depot, Lowes, etc. and apply that as a surface. As for yacht builder's however, I suspect to ensure their survival, they will stick to what is efficient, reliable, cost effective; and, evidently, preferred.

FWIW...

[Sparohok]

Originally Posted by svHyLyte

However, wood, and particularly structural plywood, has a strength-to-weight ratio roughly equal to steel or aluminum.

It's interesting, I think there are two different discussions going on in parallel, one is the structural qualities of wood and the other is the aesthetic qualities.

I don't really have anything against wood as a structural material. Balsa and marine ply are each very hard to beat within a large "sweet spot" of costs and engineering requirements. If I maligned those uses I was definitely mistaken.

But the structural arguments are more or less orthogonal to the aesthetic discussion. It does seem to me that the only real connection between the two is emotional, for those who feel that a wood interior gives them a connection to a prior age of wooden boats.

As far as I can tell, in modern sailboats very little of the visible wood is actually structural in any way. In the most beautiful examples posted here, you'll notice that the wood with the greatest structural responsibility is most likely to be painted: for example the bulkheads, timbers and cabinet sides in Ephriam's boat. That's because good structural wood generally ain't pretty wood. Plywood is butt-ugly unless it's faced with expensive veneers. I doubt if the veneer improves the strength to weight ratio, and it decimates the strength to cost ratio!

As for yacht builder's however, I suspect to ensure their survival, they will stick to what is efficient, reliable, cost effective; and, evidently, preferred.

So here's the problem with your case. What is "efficient, reliable, and cost effective" (structural marine ply and balsa cored composites) is more or less orthogonal to what is aesthetically "preferred" (exotic veneers, solid wood cabinetry). While the former helps meet a price point, the latter certainly does not. I've looked at how much a Morris costs!

Martin

[S&S]

Originally Posted by Sparohok

But the structural arguments are more or less orthogonal to the aesthetic discussion. It does seem to me that the only real connection between the two is emotional, for those who feel that a wood interior gives them a connection to a prior age of wooden boats.

Martin

Prior? Wood boats (both plank-on-frame and cold molded) are being built today. As there is no cost advantage in tooling for mass production, they're usually "one offs" and the material is advantageous in that application. In those applications WYSIWYG so structural members are also often varnished for aesthetic reasons on the interior.

Truth be told, you argument has some built in assumptions. Only if the hull is glass, would then the primary use of wood that you see be aesthetic- not structural as you say. There is usually a weight savings on Al or steel hulls for a wood interior over glass. Plugged interiors on glass boats are very thin: so they're light not by the nature of the material but by the lightness of the scantlings.

FWIW,IIRC, strength-to-weight goes like this: Carbon fiber reinforced plastic, kevlar reinforced plastic, wood, aluminum, glass reinforced plastic, steel. Adding space filling cores improves stiffness in the resin systems but doesn't usually change the order.

I'm not sure what used boats you're looking at, but a rotting interior puts things pretty far toward the bottom of the maintenance scale.

Just my $.02.

[Stevens 47]

So here's the problem with your case. What is "efficient, reliable, and cost effective" (structural marine ply and balsa cored composites) is more or less orthogonal to what is aesthetically "preferred" (exotic veneers, solid wood cabinetry). While the former helps meet a price point, the latter certainly does not. I've looked at how much a Morris costs!

The thing that costs is labor. If you build a mold to manufacture parts that are used over and over again it will cost less. Morris does not produce boats this way. To finish a structural ply panel to a high standard requires lots of labor. To cover the same panel with a veneer of some sort takes less. The labor content is the thing that mostly gets over looked...I am sure anybody that has undertaken a project will attest to that.

[Sparohok]

Originally Posted by S&S

Prior? Wood boats (both plank-on-frame and cold molded) are being built today.

Sure they are ... by people are seeking out a connection to a prior age of wooden boats! People still build wooden airplanes too.

(OK, to be fair, cold molding is a reasonably good way to build a boat. I just couldn't resist.)

Martin

[David M]

I hope nobody takes offense, but they are toys. A pleasure boat is purely there for ones.....pleasure. Who is to say a toy should look this way or that way? Try telling Mattel that.

[imagine2frolic]

Originally Posted by David M

I hope nobody takes offense, but they are toys. A pleasure boat is purely there for ones.....pleasure. Who is to say a toy should look this way or that way? Try telling Mattel that.

Even though I have a house, not a home. Imagine is my home, and I could never think of her as a toy. Toys to me are dispensible, but a sailing home is not. It gives me life, and daily as she is used she teaches me about life, and myself. I do not see Imagine as an accesory, but as a necessity. Just as some of us prefer all wood, some wood, and no wood. We all look at our vessels, or vessels that are wanted differently.

The house is 1 mile from my work, and Imagine is 20 miles away. I go to the house to mow the lawn, and a swim, but rarely more than 2 nights a week am I sleeping there. I can go months without sleeping there, and I care not. I go one night not sleeping on Imagine, and I am in a hurry to return to her.

I think when you find the right boat, and start cruising her David. You will slip into a different point of view, and then again maybe not?.....i2f

[David M]

Ok...excellent points imagine2.

[CaptForce]

As a full time cruiser and live-aboard for four decades I spend much time out in the bright cockpit and I like the darker interior, but not necessarily wood. Here are a couple of exterior photos of my 36 year old boat with little or no wood:


Most of was appears to be similar to wood in these interior photos is plastic:



Form may follow function, but it doesn't have to follow by a single path. 'take care and joy, Aythya crew

[Ex-Calif]

Don't underestimate the value of a good conversation...

Rarely do people change their minds because of an internet conversation. Variety is the spice of life.

The only issue with fiberglass that I haven't seen discussed yet is this. Our boat has a fiberglass "plug" that creates a false floor and the form for the interior benches and teh forepeak berth. The bulkheads and galley are wood.

Another maxi was on the hard here forever the fiberglass plug was deteriorated and cracked. There is no way to get a replacement or even if you could you could not get it isnside the boat with the deck on. Fiberglass repairing is possible but eventually the brittleness and deterioaration will make this a losing game.

Wood seems an efficient way to rebuild this interior.

We also talk about redoing our interior. I have several ideas for improvements when/if we do and the only way that I could execute on this with my skills is in wood.

[Sparohok]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Don't underestimate the value of a good conversation...

Thank you!

This thread did exactly what I hoped it would do when I started it: taught me a lot. I think I've acknowledged that throughout and thanked y'all repeatedly for your insight:

- Interior wood can be low maintenance (in contrast with exterior wood).

- Interior fiberglass & plastic can be high maintenance.

- If you need to brighten up a dark all-wood interior just do some painting (with technique tips).

- There are lots of boats out there that have tasteful wooden interiors that aren't dark and dungeony (with beautiful photos)

That's not to say I'm ready to concede the point, much of what I'm hearing doesn't entirely match what I actually see when I look at actual used boats (i.e. beat to crap, waterstained, even rotting woodwork and newer-looking liners and fiberglass). But it certainly helps guide me as I try to learn more.

Those who think this thread is dogmatic or worthless or full of preconceived notions need to look in a mirror. I'm sure as s**t not the one making it that way.

Martin

[Sparohok]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

Another maxi was on the hard here forever the fiberglass plug was deteriorated and cracked. There is no way to get a replacement or even if you could you could not get it isnside the boat with the deck on. Fiberglass repairing is possible but eventually the brittleness and deterioaration will make this a losing game.

So I am curious about this boat. Do builders routinely use inferior materials or resins for the interior fiberglass versus the hull? If the interior is brittle & cracking that would make me worried about the integrity of the whole boat. (Assuming it is a fiberglass hull.) Perhaps the interior pan is not cored so it flexes more and gets brittle?

Do you know how old this boat was? Was it a manufacturing flaw or just the normal service life of the fiberglass?

This is interesting & a bit disconcerting. I agree that marine ply or perhaps cored panels such as Duflex would be the materials of choice to rebuild an interior.

Martin

[Ex-Calif]

Originally Posted by Sparohok

Do you know how old this boat was? Was it a manufacturing flaw or just the normal service life of the fiberglass?

This is interesting & a bit disconcerting. I agree that marine ply or perhaps cored panels such as Duflex would be the materials of choice to rebuild an interior.

Martin

The boat is probably 28 years old. The interior pan is not "strucural" as you might think. The hull is probably 3/8" thick. The interior form might more likely be described as plastic but it is in fact maybe single layer fiberglass mold.

Think of the type of insert you might get for a shower install in a house. No real structural strength until installed. The brittleness is likely just the heating and cooling over 30 years.

I also think there was an attempt to redo the interior. Step one was pull out all the wood. Step two was leave the boat in the yard and let it fill with water for 3 years.

[Sparohok]

Originally Posted by Ex-Calif

The hull is probably 3/8" thick. The interior form might more likely be described as plastic but it is in fact maybe single layer fiberglass mold.

Got it. So for example, if the resin is oxidizing from the surface inwards, the thinner pan will be brittle long before the thicker hull becomes brittle.

I do think if I were the owner, seeing the interior pan breaking down would make me a bit nervous about the hull as well. In general, properly constructed composites seems to have an extremely long, low maintenance life span.

Martin

[Bash]

Originally Posted by Sparohok

Do builders routinely use inferior materials or resins for the interior fiberglass versus the hull?

While they probably use the same materials, they're likely to use a less expensive lay-up process. Where the hull is probably hand-laid, the hull liner may be laid up with a chop gun, which is a much less labor-intensive process. (I'm not speaking here specifically of the Maxi 77, by the way, but any number of smaller production boats.)