Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 20-08-2012, 18:31   #31
Registered User
 
callmecrazy's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Boat: Tartan 30
Posts: 1,548
Images: 1
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailmonkey View Post
I'm actually looking at a wire reel winch on Ebay.......I've had one before and want one again for handling the mainsail.
The only one I see on ebay right now is $425. I've seen them go for well under $100 before. Be patient...

PS: I'll sell you my Barient for $325
__________________

__________________
My Blog
callmecrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 18:35   #32
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,003
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

Wire reel winches were reported to be the number one cause of injury on boats back when they were popular. The uninitiated or the careless would release the brake causing the handle to swing around breaking an arm or worse. If you have one on your boat be sure your medical insurance is up to date and/or don't let anyone but you use it. They are especially dangerous for hoisting someone up the mast. If the wincher isn't careful they are very prone to letting the winchee freefall to the deck.

I tossed my Barient reel winch in the trash. Didn't want anyone to have the pleasure of injuring themselves.
__________________

__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 18:44   #33
Registered User
 
callmecrazy's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Boat: Tartan 30
Posts: 1,548
Images: 1
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

It's true what they say and it's a fair warning. But as a singlehander who has no intentions of dealing with uninformed crew members, it's pretty simple to just use the winch properly and avoid the dangers.

The only time I ever put the handle in the winch is to hoist the sail, or to tighten a reef. Anytime the sail is coming down it freefalls. It's really not too complicated. The only winch handle I use in it is one that does not lock itself in place. There's a few nuances with stuck sails and finding your reef points, but it's all pretty easy after you do it once or twice.

Crew really shouldn't be uninformed, no matter what gear you use. Carelessness is dangerous, no matter what gear is being used.
__________________
My Blog
callmecrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 18:55   #34
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: May 2012
Location: New Orleans
Boat: We have a problem... A serious addiction issue.
Posts: 3,940
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

If you choose to use wire, I guess that's your choice. I think it a bad one, but can understand.

For people using sta-set, or sta-set x, I really don't get it at all. It is stretchy and very expensive for what it is. Remember that halyards should be sized based upon expected breaking strength, not thickness. When you price it this way, polyester lines are almost double the price of dyneema (or spectra) for the same breaking strength. Depending on the size you need it can be even more expensive.

While it is true that high tech lines are more expensive for the same size, by breaking strength they are much cheaper.

So for instance Amsteel runs between .128 and .163 $/1000lbs mbl
While sta-set starts at .204 and goes up to .446 $/1000lbs mbl.

Add in the extra stretch, water absorption, uv damage, chaff problems, twisting, ect, and I honestly can't see why anyone uses sta-set for anything anymore. There are cheap and easy ways to bulk up the high tech lines where needed, that don't require overpaying for line.
__________________
Greg

- If animals weren't meant to be eaten then they wouldn't be made of food.
Stumble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 19:25   #35
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,961
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stumble View Post
If you choose to use wire, I guess that's your choice. I think it a bad one, but can understand.

For people using sta-set, or sta-set x, I really don't get it at all. It is stretchy and very expensive for what it is. Remember that halyards should be sized based upon expected breaking strength, not thickness. When you price it this way, polyester lines are almost double the price of dyneema (or spectra) for the same breaking strength. Depending on the size you need it can be even more expensive.

While it is true that high tech lines are more expensive for the same size, by breaking strength they are much cheaper.

So for instance Amsteel runs between .128 and .163 $/1000lbs mbl
While sta-set starts at .204 and goes up to .446 $/1000lbs mbl.

Add in the extra stretch, water absorption, uv damage, chaff problems, twisting, ect, and I honestly can't see why anyone uses sta-set for anything anymore. There are cheap and easy ways to bulk up the high tech lines where needed, that don't require overpaying for line.
All good points, but wouldn't sizing a new halyard by breaking strength mean a significantly reduced line diameter if one goes with Dyneema/Spectra, etc., thereby requiring replacing sheaves? Or can you always use the same diameter sheave when downsizing line diameter?

Also, is there some sort of conversion table to determine what diameter is needed? For e.g., I have wire-to-rope halyards with the rope being either 7/16" or 1/2" (I need to confirm). Is there somewhere I could look up the equivalent size/strength I need in Dyneema/Spectra?

Speaking of, is this type of line more (or just as) UV-resistant as, for e.g., Staset or Staset-X?

Thanks -- probably dumb questions, I know.

Dan
__________________
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 19:41   #36
Registered User
 
callmecrazy's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Boat: Tartan 30
Posts: 1,548
Images: 1
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
All good points, but wouldn't sizing a new halyard by breaking strength mean a significantly reduced line diameter if one goes with Dyneema/Spectra, etc., thereby requiring replacing sheaves? Or can you always use the same diameter sheave when downsizing line diameter?

Also, is there some sort of conversion table to determine what diameter is needed? For e.g., I have wire-to-rope halyards with the rope being either 7/16" or 1/2" (I need to confirm). Is there somewhere I could look up the equivalent size/strength I need in Dyneema/Spectra?

Speaking of, is this type of line more (or just as) UV-resistant as, for e.g., Staset or Staset-X?

Thanks -- probably dumb questions, I know.

Dan
Breaking strength varies from different types of materials, type of construction, and manufacturer. So unfortunately it'd be incredibly difficult to make a conversion table. (but maybe there is one?)

You can go to a manufacturers site, like sampson ropes, and look at the different breaking/working strengths for the particular rope/size you want vs. what you already have.

Then go to other sites and compare their numbers to sampsons.


Sizing by breaking strength does indeed decrease/increase the diameter of the rope. That's the point I was trying to make previously. The main reason I would replace my wire would be for handling. There'd be no point in using a 3/16 rope, of any brand/construction, because the handling problems would still exist. But if you wanted to directly replace 3/16 wire with 3/16 dyneema, it would make sense. I can't answer how the sheave would be affected, but it would be fine on the winch end.

Also, the rope tail on your wire halyards is probably not as important as you think. It's mostly there for handling, it shouldn't be taking any load at all. You should have wrap or two of wire around the rope at the winch, and the rope shouldn't be going into the sheave at the masthead. So, replacing it is just a matter of getting something that will fit in your hands, fit in your winch, and be easy to splice into the wire.
__________________
My Blog
callmecrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 19:47   #37
Registered User
 
callmecrazy's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2010
Boat: Tartan 30
Posts: 1,548
Images: 1
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

Erm... I probably didn't even answer your questions Kinda confusing....
__________________
My Blog
callmecrazy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 22:14   #38
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 127
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

I HAVE A NEW PROBLEM, I decided on going with rope my custom stainless steel seave should be done tommorrow, for less then 50 bucks too i think i got a deal, BUT i now i cant figure out how the hell to wire the mast!! So pcv pipe or????? can someone please explaine this process to me, which pipe to use, how to fasten it, i dont really like the idea of rivits, honestly i really dont like the idea of drilling any more holes in the mast i have enough. So maybe that foam like piping matierial that will probably fall apart??, oh and ps: My seave, if i spelled that right(pully at the top of mast) was for a wire only, it did NOT have the v groove.
__________________
albergsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 22:48   #39
Senior Cruiser
 
roverhi's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Kona, Hawaii, Carlsbad, CA
Boat: 1969 Pearson 35 #108 & 1976 Sabre 28
Posts: 6,003
Send a message via Yahoo to roverhi
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

PVC pipe is fastened with rivets. You drill a hole, fashion a hook and put it through the hole. Hook the PVC up against the mast, drill through the mast into the PVC and rivet. Stick a rivet in the hook hole to give it a finished look. I'm probably going to space my rivets on 2' centers with double set top and bottom. Probably could get by with 4' centers. Might want to measure the spacing on any masts that you have access to see how the pro's did it.

My 40 plus year old 39' mast had foam scraps to quiet the wires inside it. Suppose that worked okay as I still had one light out of three that weren't shorted out and the wires were quiet after all those years. The wires were just hanging in the mast and had worn through the insulation where they exited. Need to have a better system to secure the wires than tieing a knot in them where they exited the mast without a protective grommet. The foam was in 40' lengths and nearly the diameter of the mast so it couldn't fall down and may had the spreader light wire rapped around it to hold ithe foam up.

Others have said to use 4 large cable ties with the tails hanging out in different directions. Might work but will have the wires hanging from the pukas where they exit so use grommets.

I'm going with internal halyards in the mast so will be using PVC conduit and riveting it in place.. Don't want loose wires hanging around with the halyards.
__________________
Peter O.
'Ae'a Pearson 35
roverhi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20-08-2012, 23:34   #40
Registered User
 
Exile's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Land of Disenchantment
Boat: Bristol 47.7
Posts: 2,961
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
Erm... I probably didn't even answer your questions Kinda confusing....
No, your response was helpful -- thanks. My rope tails & splices, however, definitely do take some of the load. There is only rope going around the winches and I can't see how it would be feasible or safe to wrap wire around the winches even if I could. I also have wire going into the sheaves at the masthead. Not saying you may be wrong, just that this is how it's currently configured on my boat (by the PO), for better or worse.

For this & reasons of unknown age, I'm inclined to swap out the entire halyards with only rope. I had planned on just using Staset-X or maybe VPC in the same diameter as the rope portion of the existing halyards but Stumble's comments re: Dyneema/Spectra seem intriguing. Being a cruising boat, I would not be inclined to go fancy unless it was cost-effective.

Thanks again for the response. This is a task that's moving itself up onto my "A" list.
__________________
Exile is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2012, 01:01   #41
Registered User
 
Capn Morgan's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: South East Asia
Boat: Hans Christian 48T
Posts: 381
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exile View Post
Anyone care to opine on the durability of wire & rope spliced halyards? I hear the weak point is inside the splice where it can't be seen. Mine are at least 12 years old, possibly older. No visible corrosion, meathooks, etc. Wouldn't mind renewing with all rope to be safe but with a 63' mast it gets kinda pricey whatever type of line one chooses.
Our main came down one day when the splice gave. It was 14 years old.
__________________
Capn Morgan
'If you can fill the unforgiving minute with sixty seconds' worth of distance run...'
Capn Morgan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2012, 07:52   #42
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 127
Re: Wire vs Rope Halyard - Need to Make a Decision Quick

my mast had a ton of foam in it all the way up to the spreaders, the kind of foam that comes out an aerosal can, i couldnt even fish new wires down it last year. Luckily the marina had a very long steel pole that i used to bash out all the foam yesterday. The cable ties, do u mean zippy ties?? thats a good idea to leave the ends on them to stop the banging. Since I only have 1 light at the top of the mast and thats it im thinkin of just using that plastic wire wrap that they use on cars and just slide that over all my wires, then use zip tie, and not cuz the ends of the zippies off. It will protect the wire for a little while, maybe i can find a more durable wire wrap, or maybe ill just end up riviting a pcv, well see
__________________
albergsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2012, 07:59   #43
Senior Cruiser
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 5,764
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capn Morgan View Post
Our main came down one day when the splice gave. It was 14 years old.
that's good to hear, I dont' use a winch for the main and mizzen halyards, just raise the sail and cleat off the line on a horn cleat at the base of the mast. All the luff tension is supplied by the downhaul on the floating gooseneck.
__________________
Sailmonkey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2012, 11:48   #44
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 127
Re: Wire vs Rope Halyard - Need to Make a Decision Quick

who knew a double crimping CABLE tool would be so hard to find, its even hard to find one to order.. the one i bought from west marine last year and realized its only a single crimp. just more bs
__________________
albergsailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-08-2012, 12:43   #45
Senior Cruiser
 
Sailmonkey's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Houston
Boat: '76 Allied Seawind II, 32'
Posts: 5,764
Re: wire vs rope haylard need to make a decision quick

Quote:
Originally Posted by callmecrazy View Post
The only one I see on ebay right now is $425. I've seen them go for well under $100 before. Be patient...

PS: I'll sell you my Barient for $325
Hmmmm......I think you've shot your sale in the foot
__________________

__________________
Sailmonkey is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
halyard

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:36.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.