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Old 04-06-2017, 08:24   #1
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Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

Howdy Sailors!

Reason for this Topic:
I have sailed about 2,000 miles using a windvane (Monitor) to steer a sloop. I found the windvane to be reliable, and very helpful. Based on that experience, I recommend them, and want one on my own boat in the future. Recently, I saw a thread where the CF Member is considering purchase of a Yawl for a long cruise from the USA to the South Pacific. This leads me to ask the CF Members if you have a Yawl or Ketch to please answer a few questions (shown below) and if possible add a photo of your own Ketch or Yawl with your windvane in use or its installation.

For the purpose of this topic, I would like the focus to be on the use of a windvane on a YAWL or ketch, and not as a discussion of the general merits of a windvane or their use on a sloop or cutter etc.

While I have seen many photos of windvanes installed on ketches, I don't recall seeing one installed on a yawl. On most ketches (almost all that I have seen), the mizzen boom does not extend past the stern, so it would not cause the same possible problems that a yawl's mizzen boom could. But there are exceptions, where a ketch has a mizzen boom that does extend over the stern.

A common characteristic of yawls is that their mizzen boom often extends past the stern (or transom). I suspect this could potentially cause the use of a windvane to be a problem. Put another way, the mizzen boom may conflict or swing across the windvane's position, and if the wind vane's air vane is higher than the mizzen boom there could be a problem.

Here are two possible concerns with a wind vane installation on a YAWL:

1. Will the yawl's mizzen sail interfere with the use or effectiveness of a windvane?

2. Will the mizzen boom affect the proper operation of the windvane, or cause problems when tacking or gybing the boat?

While I appreciate your answers based on your experience, I do think that more examples would be helpful, because of the differences of boat designs and wind vane designs too. So, I do hope that CF Members will "Show and Tell" with their own boat example, so we can all see how different boats are using the gear.

IF you have a yawl with a windvane and it works great, tell us.
IF you have a yawl or ketch with a mizzen boom and mizzen sail that interferes with your wind vane, tell us.

I can also imagine that on some points of sail this is not a problem, as when sailing off the wind or down wind in the trade winds, the mizzen boom and sail could be to leeward of the wind vane position and so not causing a problem then. But, what about other points of sail?

I could be wrong, but it appears to me that the the windvane "paddle" or "air vane" (the part that sticks up in the air) of a typical windvane may be higher than the mizzen boom on some yawls. Or, put another way, I suspect the mizzen boom would swing into the air vane if tacking or gybing.

Just to clarify, does that happen when you tack your boat? Does the air vane paddle have to be taken down or off or held down prior to tacking or gybing?

In other words, does the windvane air vane (the part that sticks up high in the air) interfere with your tacking or gybing the mizzen boom? Does it ever get hit by the mizzen boom?

Please answer the following:

1. Your boat model and length and type (ketch or yawl)
2. Your windvane model
3. Your windvane's effectiveness on all points of sail. Do you find it more effective on your ketch or Yawl on some points of sail more than others?
4. Has your windvane been effective when going to windward? Please describe its performance on your ketch or yawl. Remember to mention the type of rig and windvane you have.
4. Have you seen any conflicts or issues with the operation of the windvane because of the mizzen sail or mizzen boom? Does the air off the mizzen sail "spoil" the windvane or affect it negatively?
5. Does your windvane air vane stick up as high or higher than your mizzen boom? Or is the air vane lower and so there is no problem with the boom hitting it?
6. Based on your experience with your windvane on your ketch or yawl, would you recommend installing one on another ketch or yawl that is intended for long distance cruising or passages?

If possible, please post a photo of your windvane installation on your boat.

Thank you for your participation and experience sharing here on CF.
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:35   #2
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

Here is a photo of an Alden 44 with a mizzen boom that extends over the transom, and a Monitor windvane installed inside of a boomkin.

I am posting this simply to add some illustrations to this thread. I don't know anything about the effectiveness of this installation on this boat.
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Old 04-06-2017, 08:43   #3
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

Amphitrite 43 Ketch
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Old 04-06-2017, 10:55   #4
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

Alberg 35 Yawl with Windvane
(Photo posted earlier on CF by PAUL L)

Unfortunately this photo does not show the air vane on the windvane rig.
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Old 04-06-2017, 11:04   #5
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

we went RTW on a shannon 37 ketch with a monitor windvane. The vane steered about 95% of the time. The mizzen boom did overlap the transom and could hit the wind blade but was never much of a problem - after all you are not usually tacking or jybing all that frequently when using a vane. It steered well on all points of sail, so long as you balanced the boat.

dont have a good photo with the windblade set . . . but . . . .
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Old 04-06-2017, 11:06   #6
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

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Here's my boat, an allied seawind II. The mizzen boom overhangs the stern by roughly 2'.

When I'm at my computer I'll add more info and photos.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:00   #7
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

We (lately I) have had a Cheoy Lee Offshore 40 yawl for 30 years, which included several years in the Sea of Cortez and a 13 year circumnavigation. Once we got through the initial learning curve, our Hydrovane steered 95% of the time on passages, and a lot of the time on shorter trips.

The mizzen boom overhangs the wind vane blade by a lot. Occasionally we would just take off the blade before tacking, but more often would hoist up the boom with the topping lift to clear the blade ("scandalize the mizzen"), tack, and lower the boom. We would more often take off the blade before gybing. If the mizzen wasn't up, we just lashed the boom off to one side, and then would use the vane to steer us through a tack. The vane steered well close-hauled, and dead downwind (especially if a little by the lee). It had a little trouble on a reach or broad reach if we had everything up--trying to balance jib, main, mizzen, mizzen staysail, and sometimes a staysail with the vane was just too complicated. Worked better if we took down the mizzen under those circumstances. Balancing the boat is key to using a windvane anyway.

I'll try to post a photo separately.
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Old 05-06-2017, 11:12   #8
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

TO ESTARZINGER, SAILMONKEY, and HENE,

Thank you all for adding your experience comment and photos to this discussion.

Yes, I understand that the use of the vane will most likely happen (and I am glad you mentioned that, and I should have in my original post) when you are on a long tack or long passage in trade winds, so may not be a big need to tack often or gybe often while using the windvane. I just wanted to address that potential issue, especially if there was a conflict on a boat because of the mizzen.

HENE, thanks for adding the detailed description and your tip about being scandalous. Good description.
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Old 05-06-2017, 15:12   #9
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

We have a Monitor Windvane on our 36' Herreshoff Nereia Ketch.
The mizzen hangs over the stern about 6' and is quite low.
So, the mizzen boom definitely hits the monitor blade when tacking or jibing.
Luckily the blade is a flexible plastic, so if you forget to remove it, all is not lost.
Good for those wonderful accidental jibes...
That said, the Monitor works great and one doesn't tack a lot while using it.
Got us to Fiji .
Sail trim and balancing the rig are critical.
Rhapsody's worst point of sail with the vane is dead downwind. Maybe because there isn't enough wind speed. Could also be balancing the rig is a little casual on my part
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Old 05-06-2017, 17:24   #10
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

RHAPSODY,

Thanks for adding your boat and photos and comments to the mix. Good post!
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Old 05-06-2017, 18:48   #11
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

I have to say I enjoyed our ketch. It was not much good upwind, but part of that was the (shallow) keel, and relatively low righting moment, in addition to the rig.

However even a little off the wind it was a joy. You had some many ways to balance it, and to adjust the sail area in small increments. The sails were all super easy to handle - never a real tussle. It hove to like a duck - way better than any sloop I have sailed. The 'jib and jigger' rig was super comforting when sailing thru snotty weather. Ours had twin (side by side) headstays, which was terrific downwind (two jibs hoisted) - and that was the ticket for downwind windvane steering - super straight in anything from 5kts to 40kts. I have a lovely memory sailing her north from St. Helena, like a week under cruising chute (alone - no other sails to mess with the air flow) in 5kts true windvane steering perfectly, and I sanded and varnished all the teak on deck (yes, while underway under spinnaker ) was lovely time.

But on that boat if you needed to go upwind . . . the better answer was to change your destination.
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Old 05-06-2017, 19:11   #12
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

No photos I'm afraid, but we have friends that used to sail a Nantucket Clipper Yawl fitted with a Monitor Vane.

The mizzen boom was very low relative to the vane, so they made their own wind-blade; I can't give precise sizes, but as I recall it was perhaps 2' high and perhaps a bit more (26/28"?) wide, I remember being told that it was of a fractionally larger overall area then the standard blade.

Must've worked OK, they sailed from the Med to Australia using it
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Old 05-06-2017, 19:16   #13
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

Quote:
Originally Posted by estarzinger View Post
I have to say I enjoyed our ketch. It was not much good upwind, but part of that was the (shallow) keel, and relatively low righting moment, in addition to the rig.

However even a little off the wind it was a joy. You had some many ways to balance it, and to adjust the sail area in small increments. The sails were all super easy to handle - never a real tussle. It hove to like a duck - way better than any sloop I have sailed. The 'jib and jigger' rig was super comforting when sailing thru snotty weather. Ours had twin (side by side) headstays, which was terrific downwind (two jibs hoisted) - and that was the ticket for downwind windvane steering - super straight in anything from 5kts to 40kts. I have a lovely memory sailing her north from St. Helena, like a week under cruising chute (alone - no other sails to mess with the air flow) in 5kts true windvane steering perfectly, and I sanded and varnished all the teak on deck (yes, while underway under spinnaker ) was lovely time.

But on that boat if you needed to go upwind . . . the better answer was to change your destination.
I enjoyed reading your example. Thanks for adding your POV to the discussion of this topic and others here on CF.
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Old 06-06-2017, 01:32   #14
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

Here is a neat little video of a homemade windvane on a 18 foot cat ketch. it seems to work well under the mizzen.



My folks have a servo pendulum on their Ketch. the latest Fleming doesn't work too well due to the wheel ratios not being right, and there is a lot of friction in the system and load on the big rudder. But the previous Monitor copy worked pretty well due to having the right ratio for their wheel system.

The mizzen itself is not a major problem as far as wind-flow goes, because when the wind is forward of the beam the boat holds her course nicely without a vane as long as she isn't pushed to hard. Once we crack sheets the mizzen is well clear of the windvane anyway, and has minimal effect on the apparent wind.

It is a bit of an issue with the tallest vane catching the mizzen during a gybe or tack. So for in this case it is best to fold it down, but if the boom clips the vane it just pushes it clear with minimal bad effects.

Here are a few Photos of her

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Old 06-06-2017, 01:37   #15
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Re: Windvanes on Ketches and Yawls: Show and Tell

A couple of photo's of the vane on the stern here

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