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Old 09-01-2013, 07:37   #16
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
You would be better off with a SS toggle.

If you we're to use 316 SS chain for 316 3/8" cable, the chain would have to be 3/4" or larger. Good luck adapting that!

If you used G4 galvanized chain it would have to be 3/8". Once it started working it would bleed rust all over the chain plates.

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Why 3/4" chain? 3/8" chain is plenty strong for terminating a 3/8" wire.

I would not normally use galvanized, except for an emergency repair, to be changed out at first opportunity. I think the only galvanized chain I have on the boat is 30' of anchor chain.

Not difficult to connect with just a thimble through the end link, but a good SS shackle between eye and chain works fine, too. I avoid fancy prancy hardware when possible. It's too darn easy to walk out of a chandlery with a distressingly small $400 sack of that crap. Chain makes adjustment fairly easy to within the range of the turnbuckle, when you have had to cut and re-terminate a wire.
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Old 09-01-2013, 11:30   #17
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

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Originally Posted by GrowleyMonster View Post
Why 3/4" chain? 3/8" chain is plenty strong for terminating a 3/8" wire.

I would not normally use galvanized, except for an emergency repair, to be changed out at first opportunity. I think the only galvanized chain I have on the boat is 30' of anchor chain.

Not difficult to connect with just a thimble through the end link, but a good SS shackle between eye and chain works fine, too. I avoid fancy prancy hardware when possible. It's too darn easy to walk out of a chandlery with a distressingly small $400 sack of that crap. Chain makes adjustment fairly easy to within the range of the turnbuckle, when you have had to cut and re-terminate a wire.
It the strength of the items. "No chain is stronger then the weakest link" In this case the whole chain is the weakest. Look at the charts below.

316 3/8" cable is rated at 14,000. Where an equivalent strength SS chain is most likely up in the 3/4" bracket. If you put on 3/8' chain, you've down graded the rig to 3,550. Even galvanized chain is only 5,400.

This is why I say a toggle is best. Toggles are what attaches cable to chainplates!


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Old 09-01-2013, 12:36   #18
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

Okay, according to those tables your argument is valid. But 14,000 lbs for 3/8" wire? Wow I hope I never get a 14,000 lb load on the plywood bulkhead that my chainplates are bolted to! Something doesn't seem quite right. But since I am about 8,000 miles from my boat anyway, I guess I won't worry about it til I get home. But it looks like the weak link is actually a piece of 36 year old plywood, not a piece of chain.
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Old 09-01-2013, 12:49   #19
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

Del, you are comparing breaking strength to working load limit... very different numbers. There is not much difference in the breaking strengths.

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Old 09-01-2013, 17:51   #20
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

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Del, you are comparing breaking strength to working load limit... very different numbers. There is not much difference in the breaking strengths.

Cheers,

Jim
Sorry but chain doesn't have a breaking strength. Find it for us. It starts to stretch once it passes working load that's when the welds start to be compromised.

Cable is designed to be under constant load. Chain is not, otherwise they'd be using it on bridges and other construction.

I can see it now, that big gust comes along and puts a 3700 lb load on the shrouds (Less then half the weight of my keel). Then the boat comes back up and oops the rigging is loose. Then comes another big gust. Oh s**t!

But that 14,800 stuff is still doing great flopping around. Sorry! Not for me.
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Old 09-01-2013, 18:40   #21
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

I might add too that the wire is already, or should be, pretensioned to around 1850 for shrouds (for 304 material).


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Old 10-01-2013, 10:49   #22
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

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Sorry but chain doesn't have a breaking strength. Find it for us. It starts to stretch once it passes working load that's when the welds start to be compromised.

Cable is designed to be under constant load. Chain is not, otherwise they'd be using it on bridges and other construction.

I can see it now, that big gust comes along and puts a 3700 lb load on the shrouds (Less then half the weight of my keel). Then the boat comes back up and oops the rigging is loose. Then comes another big gust. Oh s**t!

But that 14,800 stuff is still doing great flopping around. Sorry! Not for me.
hmmm, for some reason my gut is saying something's amiss in this thinking. I'm thinking of a 40000 lb boat hanging on 3/8 anchor chain snubbing up hard in chop, shock loading the chain and comparing that to a wind gust which just heels the boat. Seems to me if your logic was good, then we shouldnt use chain for anchoring.
Chain is also used commonly as a bobstay. Good chain is tested to breakage. If it's high test isnt it heat treated after welding...?
Personally If I needed more length, I would likely use toggles etc. But on a salty boat, schooner, dreadnaught etc.... might look great!
Just sayin'......
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Old 10-01-2013, 11:05   #23
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

We're talking SS chain. You will not see that on a bobstay. Most of the bobstays I see to day are cable and adjustable.

Sure hi-test (steel) chain is great. It's real good when heat treated and used on chain hoists . But it rusts. And so will the galvanized when hanging vertical. Ask a rigger why they don't use chain when building rigs.

BTW a boat is not hanging on a chain no more then a horse is hanging on it's bridle. Anchor chain is good in that it will stretch under a shock load before it breaks, for a while. Then this happens.


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Old 10-01-2013, 19:40   #24
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

Quote:
Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
Sorry but chain doesn't have a breaking strength. Find it for us. It starts to stretch once it passes working load that's when the welds start to be compromised.

Cable is designed to be under constant load. Chain is not, otherwise they'd be using it on bridges and other construction.

I can see it now, that big gust comes along and puts a 3700 lb load on the shrouds (Less then half the weight of my keel). Then the boat comes back up and oops the rigging is loose. Then comes another big gust. Oh s**t!

But that 14,800 stuff is still doing great flopping around. Sorry! Not for me.
DAng, I wonder what this quote from the West Marine catalog might mean, then (one of many specifications there):
3/8" BBB Chain, 2650lb. SWL, 11000lb. Breaking Strength, 1.7lb./ft., 400' Standard Pack

Cheers,

Jim
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Old 10-01-2013, 20:14   #25
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

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DAng, I wonder what this quote from the West Marine catalog might mean, then (one of many specifications there):
3/8" BBB Chain, 2650lb. SWL, 11000lb. Breaking Strength, 1.7lb./ft., 400' Standard Pack

Cheers,

Jim
Probably just a typo, like the breaking strength specs from 1st Chain Supply on their web site.
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Old 10-01-2013, 21:11   #26
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

Dang! I knew ya'll'd come up with some steel/iron chain. How bout Stainless? I guess I shoulda specified SS.
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Old 10-01-2013, 22:29   #27
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

Well...Don't know how we got on chain but regarding swagging, I pay $7 a swage on 9/32" wire and the do it on a hammermill type swagger. Nice and straight...no banana shapes. If you're trying to save money, hand/hyd swaggers are not the way to go.
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Old 10-01-2013, 23:29   #28
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

Well if I was redoing standing rigging on a smaller boat like the OP's or mine, I'd very strongly think about synthetic.

Like here.
Colligo Synthetic Rigging Systems


Seems like the way to go, and I just may this Spring.
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Old 11-01-2013, 17:02   #29
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

Thank you everybody for the replies, I have decided to go to the professionals and get the cables swage. American rigging in Florida has Given me a very good deal so all and all that is the route I am going
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Old 11-01-2013, 18:50   #30
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Re: Will a hydraulic swage tool work for standing rigging

Good choice.
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