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Bash · 27-10-2010, 08:32

my previous boat was 41' LOA with a 14' beam, and a relatively light displacement of ten tons. A production boat, of course. The lightboat-with-a-stick crowd had nearly convinced me that I'd die if I ever got caught in a blow offshore. Sure enough, I ended up running downwind in a gale with 40-knot winds for two days. Didn't die. Didn't come close to getting pooped despite steep 14' seas. Discovered that my autopilot could handle the boat even when it began to surf. Keel didn't fall off, nor did rudder. Boat didn't oil-can once--not once.

Let me repeat that central claim for the lightboat-with-a-stick crowd: I didn't die.

MarkJ · 27-10-2010, 08:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeehag

what is our new design to replace these?? to replace these heavy ladies (mine is a big momma)???

I dunno. Oysters, Island Packet, Passport, Tartan, Nordhavn motor sailer....
all quite pricey....

SaltyMonkey · 27-10-2010, 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ

Have a look at when the book was first published.
The 'bible' is Allard Coles Heavy Weather Sailing and like ALL those books they came from more than a generation ago. That one being written in the 1960's.

This is misleading if not incorrect. It has been revised a number of times with up to date facts. The current 6th edition is from 2008.

The basis of the premise of research suggests that narrow beam causes less chance of trip and faster recovery time. However...

With any research, you must also consider that wave propagation is non-linear as an accumulation of many events and angles. So, even though you may be concerned about safety in design, none of it will help when going into the pit of a 28-30 meter monster wave packing 100 tons per square meter, or coming off the backside of a large wave that you happened to survive only to find a cliff on the other end of things.

For true stability measurements, STYXX is a fairly reasonable statistic, but difficult to come by since the variables are numerous and not easily found with the facts of a design.

Capt Phil · 27-10-2010, 08:48

Bill Garden's designs harken back to the days when sail was the preferred power source and engines were a convenience to get in and out of tight spaces with no wind. The products that came from his boards will be classics for the next century at least and have proven themselves in some really crappy weather and sea conditions. IMHO todays designers are catering to a generation of cruisers/wanna be's who like the creature comforts of floating condos with lots of space below like they have shoreside. The performance cruiser seems aimed at a fairly narrow market and is priced accordingly. There don't seem to be that many knowledgeable buyers with the financial where with all to commission a build with the performance characteristics you want for long distance passage making. I've heard brokers telling prospective buyers that buying the most LOA you can afford is the best way to go because every foot you add is in the middle of the boat and adds the most to 'livable' space. Clearly, they haven't been chucked about in a wide body when a sea is running! The best source of advice are forums like this where folks can read what knowledgable sailors have experienced, what works and doesn't work for them and what they would add or delete from their cruising platform. It seems to boil down to what are you going to use the boat for. Looking around any marina, you can see the 'dock queens' that rarely if ever untie the dock lines while there are others who have been living comfortably on the hook for years and wouldn't bother with tying up unless they were taking on fuel or provisions for a passage. A long warm up to my answer to 'Z's question which IMO we will see more of the 'floating fornicatoriums' in the future and fewer solid cruising vessels because that is where the market is.

barnakiel · 27-10-2010, 09:52

With less than 1% of boats ever going on any serious trip I say make 99% of boats beamy and then a handfull of narrow boats for those who go to the rough areas of the globe.

And all this discussing of narrow vs. beamy is out of context as we may very well have a narrow boat with inadequate ballast (or other design faults) that will get flipped faster and with more dramatic consequences than her beamy and properly designed sister.

Please note some 100% blue water southern ocean super duper boats ARE extremely beamy - e.g. the IMOCAs. Minis are extremely beamy and they sail from Europe to Brasil in HUNDREDS ...

For what most boat owners do (sitting it out at the dock) beamy is good. For most of what offshore cruisers do (the coconut milk run) a beamy boat is much faster and stable platform than a narrow and rolling clunker.

Every boat has its optimum application and as long as we stick with it we are in for a comfortable and safe experience (sailing or not).

b.

Ben M-P · 27-10-2010, 09:56

Light and fast = easier to avoid bad weather

Heavy and slow = easier to survive it

which is right will be endlessly debated. It is more about finding the boat that is right for you and your cruising style.

**sneuman** · 27-10-2010, 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M-P

Light and fast = easier to avoid bad weather

Heavy and slow = easier to survive it

which is right will be endlessly debated. It is more about finding the boat that is right for you and your cruising style.

"Outrunning bad weather" - great in theory, hardly ever happens in practice.

Just a few minutes ago, this special marine statement was issued for the Chesapeake:

MARINE WEATHER STATEMENT
NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE BALTIMORE MD/WASHINGTON DC
1251 PM EDT WED OCT 27 2010

ANZ531-532-538>540-271745-
1251 PM EDT WED OCT 27 2010

...STRONG THUNDERSTORMS APPROACHING THE WATERS...

AT 1246 PM EDT...NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE DOPPLER RADAR INDICATED AN
AREA OF HEAVY SHOWERS WITH EMBEDDED THUNDERSTORMS...PRODUCING STRONG
WINDS UP TO 33 KNOTS...OVER NORTHERN PRINCE GEORGES COUNTY...ABOUT
16 NM WEST OF MAYO...MOVING NORTHEAST AT 35 KNOTS.

Obviously, not all storms move that quickly, but it is a sobering thought for anyone who wants to "outrun" weather as a storm tactic.

In any case, it seems more luck than anything else. Luck is a great tactic, but only seems to work part of the time.

barnakiel · 27-10-2010, 10:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben M-P

Light and fast = easier to avoid bad weather

Heavy and slow = easier to survive it

I would say that also the light and beamy has a good chance of surviving any storm when she is safely tied to the dock.

b.

Brob2 · 27-10-2010, 10:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by MarkJ

In fact I do not know of any book written on the subject by someone in a modern designed purpose built cruiser that's authoritative on the subject.

well, it's hard to write about a journey if you don't survive it

What amazes me is not how few boat owners actually go offshore, it's how many never leave the dock. The key to successful sailing is proper preparation for a vessel appropriate and skipper appropriate journey. Success is in the details, not in the design philosophy.

PS- Mark, have a safe and very pleasant voyage. I will miss your posts while your underway.

Ben M-P · 27-10-2010, 10:25

I meant that with a fast boat you are not spending as much time on passages and are therefor more likely to stay with in your window and be in the harbor during the storm.

barnakiel · 27-10-2010, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by sneuman

"Outrunning bad weather" - great in theory, hardly ever happens in practice.

Tell this to VOR guys or the Banque Populaire crew.

In fact - they sail so fast that oftentimes they will chase the bad weather because in normal conditions they are not competitive enough.

I agree that it is difficult if not impossible to outsail mid lat or high lat weather where systems can be thousands of miles across. Even so, one can position the boat in a more convenient spot which is a big bonus anyway.

In tropical systems the system can be 150 to 450 across, with the worst zone much less. A boat sailing at 10 knots will dodge the nasty quadrant in 24 hours.

So, one cannot?

b.

barnakiel · 27-10-2010, 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brob2

Success is in the details, not in the design philosophy.

It is not?

And I will say the success is everywhere. A good sailor will not cross the ocean if the boat fails. Neither will an ignorant sailor cross an ocean in a well prepared Oyster (*).

(*I am ready to review my view on this one)

b.
Las Palmas
where the ARC starts

**sneuman** · 27-10-2010, 10:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Tell this to VOR guys or the Banque Populaire crew.

In fact - they sail so fast that oftentimes they will chase the bad weather because in normal conditions they are not competitive enough.

I agree that it is difficult if not impossible to outsail mid lat or high lat weather where systems can be thousands of miles across. Even so, one can position the boat in a more convenient spot which is a big bonus anyway.

In tropical systems the system can be 150 to 450 across, with the worst zone much less. A boat sailing at 10 knots will dodge the nasty quadrant in 24 hours.

So, one cannot?

b.

VORacers, most of us are not. As for moving to the safer quadrant of a tropical storm. Certainly it's possible, but past threads on the subject of "outrunning bad weater" indicate, few have examples of actually doing it.

My point is that if outrunning bad weather is the reason for choosing a less seaworthy boat, you have to depend on having luck on your side most, if not all of the time. I have personal experience with being in a situation where the typhoon tracked in such a way that there would have been no chance to move out of danger even if the boat did 10 knots. Having a stout, seaworthy boat was, in that case quite literally, a real life saver.

SaltyMonkey · 27-10-2010, 10:41

outrunning a storm isn't practical in high lats.
outrunning a storm is somewhat practical in low lats.

However the waves can propagate thousands of miles away so theoretical outrunning is useless in all cases.

I think being myopically focused on beam is pointless. There are just too many variables that go into a good boat choice - ALL the design characteristic variables, the 55% breaking wave size, tankage, liveability, the personality of the owners, the cost, the cruising ground, the non deterministic environment, the world changing weather patterns.