Why is the Marconi Rig so Popular?

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by mrohr

Barnakiel: I assume you are responding above to my crab claw post. you ask how to rig it using modern materials,well I don't know ,but the pacific islanders were able to do so and navigate the worlds largest ocean using only stone age technology,so surely today's materials can make do.
In all this discussion regarding rigs it is a mistake to consider the rig as divorced from the hull form.A cat rig mandates a wider hull form than a sloop rigged analogous craft,since on different points of sail the forces generated by the various rigs transmit different turning moments on the hull ,so the naval architect must counter these forces with hull shape, ballast placement etc..
It is likewise a mistake to consider that the"modern" hull form as divorced from the rig placed on top.
FWIW: Marchaj claims that the various racing rules that have favored the sloop rig are not tweaked as much as those regarding hull form and thereby innovation regarding rigs is attenuated.
Have sailed sloops, gaffs and cats,and have never even seen a crab claw rig but if I do you can bet I'll wrangle a ride and report back.
Cheers.

Yes.

Perhaps we could have such an experimental rig on a cat? I think cats are most like the Polynesian boats I have seen.

(Re: sailing skills of Polynesian people: When white men arrived, Polynesians lived inland. Their voyages were mostly downwind and vastly random (random may not be the right word, excuse me my poor English). I believe they did have some sailing skills but since it was "Cook who discovered them rather than them to discover Cook" then I would guess European sailing skills were way ahead of Polynesian sailing skills. A subject for a separate thread and I am sure there has been one.)

Back to crabs: I remember seeing pictures on the web, people do build them sometimes. Building things, breaking things and repeating the process is often the way ahead in sailing and otherwise. At least this is how we got our fine hulls and tall rigs.

b.

[rtbates]

Only ONE reason and that's increased speed and effeciency to windward..And the human tendency to want to race another boat on your tack and, of course, be FASTER...

[waywardsuun]

OK, This is a little of the subject but I have a ketch rigged Hans Christian 43 in my yard I have not got to sail yet. Still working on her. I have always sailed marconi sail plans, never a ketch. Everywhere I read that the ketch is not a good to windward rig. Just how bad is it and why? I lot of people posting on this thread are pretty smart about sails, just thought I would ask.
Thanks, WayWARDsuun

[Bash]

Originally Posted by waywardsuun

I have always sailed marconi sail plans, never a ketch.

You may be confusing "marconi" with "sloop." Most ketches have marconi sails. Think of a marconi sail merely as a triangular sail with the head pointing skyward.

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by waywardsuun

OK, This is a little of the subject but I have a ketch rigged Hans Christian 43 in my yard I have not got to sail yet. Still working on her. I have always sailed marconi sail plans, never a ketch. Everywhere I read that the ketch is not a good to windward rig. Just how bad is it and why? I lot of people posting on this thread are pretty smart about sails, just thought I would ask.
Thanks, WayWARDsuun

Each sail bends the wind. Notice that the jib block is off to the side of the boat and when sailing upwind that the main has to be sheeted to the centerline of the boat to not luff. Now that the main has bent the wind, where does the mizzen have to be sheeted to not luff? Some ketches don't bother to use the mizzen upwind because of this problem, but now you're underpowered in light airs. Some boats like the Sundeers have enough separation between the main and mizzen that the mizzen is in less disturbed/headed wind.

There was a time in the racing rules where the mizzen and mizzen staysail sail areas were not counted and lots of boats went ketch or yawl. When the rules changed the mizzens went away.

John

[waywardsuun]

Thanks John, Thats about what I thought. The mizzen is not much use up wind. Does it help on other points of sail?
Ward

[Efraim]

When Nigel Irens, not known for designing slow boats, designs cruisers here is what he comes up with:


A boat he designed for his own use:



When he does racing...well it's a whole different ball game:

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by rtbates

Only ONE reason and that's increased speed and effeciency to windward..And the human tendency to want to race another boat on your tack and, of course, be FASTER...

Yes. Often the origin of an improvement is from the racing world (or else from the war time). But we too benefit from such improvements in the time of peace (or else cruising): I started sailing in the country of rocks and skerries where windward ability simply allows one to navigate safer due to ability to point higher. Will I make it pass that stone or not?

There is no such thing as a boat that points too well, but there are boats that point very poorly. They maybe an OK choice for some types of cruising but I would not go for the worse pointing boat neither in the skerries nor in a narrow atoll entrance.

All tools have their proper use. As long as we know limitations of our boats and we sail then accordingly, we will all make it to the bar at the end of the day ;-)

b.

[minaret]

Originally Posted by cal40john

Each sail bends the wind. Notice that the jib block is off to the side of the boat and when sailing upwind that the main has to be sheeted to the centerline of the boat to not luff. Now that the main has bent the wind, where does the mizzen have to be sheeted to not luff? Some ketches don't bother to use the mizzen upwind because of this problem, but now you're underpowered in light airs. Some boats like the Sundeers have enough separation between the main and mizzen that the mizzen is in less disturbed/headed wind.

There was a time in the racing rules where the mizzen and mizzen staysail sail areas were not counted and lots of boats went ketch or yawl. When the rules changed the mizzens went away.

John

Anyone who would sail a ketch to weather without the mizzen just doesn't understand the rig. You need the mizzen to balance the helm when sailing to weather, without it you will experience severe weather helm, as the main on a ketch is further forward than on a sloop or cutter to provide better downwind sailing. The mizzens sole purpose is to counteract that and balance the helm when NOT sailing downwind. Broad reaching or sailing DDW without the mizzen is normal and makes perfect sense, because then the mizzen just makes the boat want to round up and unbalances the helm, causing you to use 30 degrees of rudder angle to hold your course instead of five. The whole point of having the taller mast forward is so that you can carry maximum sail area downwind and the boat will essentially steer itself due to the forward location of the main mast.

[barnakiel]

The argument of sheeting points jib / main / mizz is a valid but here presented in its flawed form: for the jib and the main are 'connected' at the top (as well as they stay very close along most of the leech/luff when beating) , while the mizzen mast does not touch the top of the main mast ... well, not on most boats ;-)

So, the sheeting points do have to be more inboard as one progresses aft, but the difference between the mizzy and the main is much less than between the jib and the main.

We really do not have to sheet the mizz to windward shrouds ;-)))

b.

[barnakiel]

And, if so:

- will a cat pont higher than a sloop?

Yes/No?

And why?

b.

[zeehag]

ketches rock!!!! smoooth sailing..and mine are both marconi, despite my love of gaff rigging and my new found intrigue with junk rigging....

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by zeehag

ketches rock!!!! smoooth sailing..and mine are both marconi, despite my love of gaff rigging and my new found intrigue with junk rigging....

And this is not another ketch thread: And if it is NOT then what is THIS?

[zeehag]

ccouldnt see it--i aint speakin' ketches this time--dual marconi rigged shiplets..lol...what IS that, me friend??

[cal40john]

Originally Posted by minaret

Anyone who would sail a ketch to weather without the mizzen just doesn't understand the rig. You need the mizzen to balance the helm when sailing to weather, without it you will experience severe weather helm, as the main on a ketch is further forward than on a sloop or cutter to provide better downwind sailing. The mizzens sole purpose is to counteract that and balance the helm when NOT sailing downwind. Broad reaching or sailing DDW without the mizzen is normal and makes perfect sense, because then the mizzen just makes the boat want to round up and unbalances the helm, causing you to use 30 degrees of rudder angle to hold your course instead of five. The whole point of having the taller mast forward is so that you can carry maximum sail area downwind and the boat will essentially steer itself due to the forward location of the main mast.

Sailing upwind without the mizzen can cause lee helm, not weather helm. I've only sailed a ketch a couple of times. I've known people that didn't bother with the mizzen upwind and they were sailors who understood trim and balance. It depends so much on the boat. A boat with a large mizzen is going to need it to go upwind, in that case the mizzen is not just to balance the helm, it also provides a significant portion of the drive. A small mizzen close to the main might be so backwinded as to be nearly useless.