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Old 19-12-2011, 18:09   #46
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

A Marconi/Bermuda/Sloop/Cutter rig is in principle easy to sail. A Cat rig (not catamaran) might be easier but is less efficient as a stand alone. With the addition of a canting mast some negative effects might be nivellated.

And what are the extra complications precisely?

Any double masted rig is a nuisance to me. And I have one.
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Old 19-12-2011, 18:11   #47
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

from reading this thread it is becoming obvious that the marconi rig is superior to most other rigs...I was drown to the beauty and simplicity of junk rig...in my opinion this rig was good enough to meat my needs...however I am a science man and evolution has made the marconi rig what it is today...thers no denying its longevity as my rig was built in 1964 and still in good condition.

so to all thanks for the help
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Old 19-12-2011, 18:12   #48
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

It's a good question. Some people like to sail to weather. I dont much when cruising unless the wind is blowing good. In fact, I prefer to motorsail to weather if that's what I need to do to get there in a reasonable time. I stopped using a spinnaker also. I suppose due to the complication. So if you are of that attitude, then an unstayed cat rig would be great I would think! No leaking corroding chainplates or fittings to worry about. One sail, or two if you are a big boat and a cat ketch. The other side of the coin is that in a smaller boat, you might want to push it as hard as possible to keep makng more than 3 knots!
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Old 19-12-2011, 18:17   #49
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

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Originally Posted by jobi View Post
so if I understand corectly...a cruiser not interested in racing has no need for the extra complications of a marconi rig?

strictly speeching of long distance cruising ( not marina hopping) a cat rig, lug rig, junk would be a batter rig ??
What!you're the OP!Usually they never get three pages into their thread


but that's a different question from "This rig is more complicated to operate and cost more than other rigs…why has it been growing sins the 1940s?"
a really loaded question-really an argument-by the way.Is this an anchor thread in sheeps clothing?
but I'll bite.First off,if 20 million people have a Marconi Rig,how bad can it be? Millions more sailed junks,so how bad can they be?But here's a difference...If you vary from the norm around you,where expertise and parts are rare,you will need to "re-invent it"-it's a custom design with custom parts while on the other hand,you can pretty much shop for a marconi rig with a massive expertise on tap in your native language to help you choose the right one for your -most likely-western hull shape intended for marconi rig-you can't really do that for sticking a standing lug rig onto your Beneteau.
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Old 20-12-2011, 11:57   #50
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

Not so simple.. The complications are merely boat sensitive more than depending on the type of rig based on the type of the mainsail. What you should study more is questions like wheather a sloop, cutter or ketch suits best for your cruising plans not to concentrate on the mainsail or stays.. IMHO
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:16   #51
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

Part of the problem is that the modern keelboat and marconi/bermuda rig have evolved with each other...

I really like the idea of a junk rig because it's supposed to be extremely easy to sail downwind or on a reach and the sail itself costs very little and can be made easily. But you would have to almost completely re-do the mast and rigging on most modern sailboats to fit one. From what I remember when I was reading about it, you would have to remove the old mast, build a new mast that can withstand the strain of an unstayed rig, move the mast forward, etc...a huge amount of money and work, especially on a larger boat. And you probably would never be able to draw out the full potential because the boat was designed for a different rig.

Every now and then I see a dismasted boat for sale for very cheap....that's about the only situation I can think of where I would try a different style of rig...
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:37   #52
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

Is it still so popular?

It is an old thread back from 2011 ...

I thought the marconi rig was something of a passing fancy, Lady Gaga sort of thing!

b.
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Old 08-04-2012, 10:47   #53
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

Just to entertain and edify the CF crowd here are some old pics of a neighbors junk-rigged Wharram. He called this rig "Dragon Wings", the boat is of course named Puff. Very Wharram-y.
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Old 08-04-2012, 11:26   #54
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

Connie and I sailed a Junk rigged schooner for over 20 years !Had to be the easiest sailing rig I ever had !! Easy to raise, easy to reef, easy to adjust shape drive ect. Connie could and did make sail changes by herself easily!( at 5ft1 and 110 lbs) after a yr or so we even seldom used the engine even to anchor!! I guess if ya don't like the Look of this style of sail, you will not use em but I would love to have them again !! just a old timers 2 cents
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Old 09-04-2012, 09:25   #55
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

like others have said, the marconi rig is better to windward than the traditional gaff rig. and sailing went from commercial to pleasure once decent combustion engines started to power commercial fishing boats. so the only sail boats around were for racing, which always included an upwind leg. hence, the marconi rig took over.

note however, that the gaff rig is superior to the marconi rig on a downwind run. that's why you need to fly a spinnaker (with a marconi rig) to get decent performance downwind. the gaff rig works very well off the wind, and so it was used for ages by boats that used the trasde winds to get them where they were going.

there is an argument in favor of a gaff rig for a motor sailor. when you're heading into the wind, just fire up your engine. on a beam reach or anything further off the wind just hoist your gaff and switch your engine off.

downwind, a gaff rig really comes into its own. it sails itself, unlike a spinnaker which needs a lot of attention.

horses for courses!
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:18   #56
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

The gaff rig was not optimized for downwind wind but closer winded sailing, at least close winded for the boats of the era. The square sails of ships, brigs, topsail schooners, etc. were the downwind sails. Where the gaff rig really shined was in reaching conditions where it's low aspect ratio. They are not ideal sails for close winded work but offered reasonable close winded performance that the square sail couldn't hope to achieve.

The gaff rig was the bread and butter sail combination for those plying the coastal trade where windward performance is at a premium. Schooners, ketches, etc. were the primary vessels in this trade and fishing and mostly used gaff mains and gaff foresails. The gaff rig allowed for a relatively easily handled sail with a lot of area that worked for the low aspect ratio rigs of the era. It gave much better windward performance than square sails and large sail area for height in reaching conditions.

The rig fell out of favor when the advent of newer technology made the Bermuda/Marconi rigs ability to put the greater efficiency of high aspect ratio sails into effect. Long thin airfoils/sails are the most efficient way to capture the power of the wind, especially going to weather. Just look at a glider with their ability to stay in the are virtually as long as the pilot can last to see what high aspect is all about.

Spinnakers are only necessary to get the maximum force out of the wind. Recently ran wing and wing for 14 days at near hull speed in moderate force 3-4 conditions in my sloop. Since I was single handed, didn't want the hassle that the extra 1/2 knot or so of speed the asymetric spinnaker would have given me. Schooners that were used in offshore trade almost always sported square sails, the antigue version of the spinnaker, for downwind work. Racing schooners experimented with spinnaker like sails in their heyday as did sloops, ketches, yawls, etc along with their gaff sails to improve off the wind performance.

The advent of aluminum and now carbon spars, wire rigging, and, most of all, synthetic sails have made the gaff rig an anachronism. Today, you can get an easily handled marconi rig on vessels above 50' in length for the short handed cruiser. You don't need the hassle of the gaff with it's complexity and weight aloft to get off the wind performance.

As far as Lug rigs, they may be easy to handle but they just aren't efficient windward sails. Blondie Hasler tried the junk rig on a Folk Boat and managed to finish dead last in the OSTAR, IIRC. If ease of controlling the sail is your raison d'etre, a furling marconi rig is the easiest rig to handle. I won't get into the reason why I wouldn't have a furling mainsail, however.
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Old 09-04-2012, 12:37   #57
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

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The advent of aluminum and now carbon spars, wire rigging, and, most of all, synthetic sails have made the gaff rig an anachronism.
I'm not sure we've written the gaff off entirely. These new square-topped mains that the go-fast crowd are so enamored with may not have an independent gaff on its own hoist, but there's not that much difference otherwise. Same basic shape, although now it's achieved with a batten system rather than a gaff.
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Old 18-04-2012, 19:23   #58
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

I'll second Bash's comment here. I'm in the middle of building a 42' steel double ender. She's fairly heavy and I wanted a large SA/D ratio to give her the power to sail well. A marconi rig with the sail area needed put the center of effort of those sails high enough that she would be too tender. However, a gaff rig with its lower, wider sail plan gives lots of sail area low down. Less leverage on the hull enables the boat to stand up to more sail better.

In addition, the triangular shape of a standard marconi sail is very inneficient. In aerodynamics the efficiency, meaning lift to drag ratio, of sail shapes (wing planform, for aircraft) is a normal calcualtion. Triangular is terrible, which is why you never see triangular wings on aircraft (except for delta wing supersonic jets, which are a special case).

Anyway, my design is what I'd call a modern gaff rig, with a short light gaff running on a track and double, swept spreaders. I believe it will be an efficient, powerful rig. Basically a cruising version of a racers' squaretop, without the expense and longevity issues they have.

Time will tell how well it works out. I'll let you all know after she's launched and sorted out.

Regards,

Paul
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Old 18-04-2012, 19:28   #59
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popular…?

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I'm not sure we've written the gaff off entirely. These new square-topped mains that the go-fast crowd are so enamored with may not have an independent gaff on its own hoist, but there's not that much difference otherwise. Same basic shape, although now it's achieved with a batten system rather than a gaff.

I have made this comment many times in many settings and have almost invariably been laughed at. NA's these days love to reinvent old ideas and call them new. And they and their clients get mad at you when you say, "Oh thats been around for hundreds of years".
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Old 18-04-2012, 19:41   #60
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I have made this comment many times in many settings and have almost invariably been laughed at. NA's these days love to reinvent old ideas and call them new. And they and their clients get mad at you when you say, "Oh thats been around for hundreds of years".
The aerodynamic modelling, and the resultant effects put comparing such sails and gaffs like comparing stephensons rocket and the TGV, yes both run on rails.......

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