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Old 17-12-2011, 16:39   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeddyDiver
Your quess is wrong.. Wooden masts were still used when marconi came along
Like Sarafina says..
Maybe the "inexpensive" part was missed in my guess...

If wood spars Re the right choice why don't se see them being used today.

Again, cheap, lightweight strong aluminum spars can be maded by a machine.

I didn't say the are no boats with wooden spars...
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Old 17-12-2011, 17:31   #32
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

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Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
Maybe the "inexpensive" part was missed in my guess...

If wood spars Re the right choice why don't se see them being used today.

Again, cheap, lightweight strong aluminum spars can be maded by a machine.

I didn't say the are no boats with wooden spars...
Aluminium spars are more idiot owner proof - esp. on maintanence.

I've got one
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Old 17-12-2011, 18:25   #33
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

A wooden mast pro built is much more expensive. Extruded alu mast sections are cheaper and quicker to produce depending on size and type of boat.
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Old 18-12-2011, 10:02   #34
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

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For the cruiser wouldn’t a crab claw be more practical?... and still offer good performance at low cost… I am wondering if the Marconi rig has more to do with economics then performance, after all it is the rig that generates more profits to the industry… considering all the riggings and sail options??
To answer that question all you have to do is look at Americas cup boats! Not a budget issue with them fer sure....
It would be a rare cat rig that goes to weather better than a sloop. It's the slot between the two sails (among other things) that helps create the excellent thrust to windward.
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Old 18-12-2011, 10:05   #35
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

It is simple, one mast, one boom and four stays. The more complex you make a system the more likely it is to break.
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Old 18-12-2011, 15:52   #36
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

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Originally Posted by Cheechako View Post
To answer that question all you have to do is look at Americas cup boats! Not a budget issue with them fer sure....
It would be a rare cat rig that goes to weather better than a sloop. It's the slot between the two sails (among other things) that helps create the excellent thrust to windward.
Yes it's rare for a cat rig to be faster upwind, it is not universally better, but not because of the rig type, it's usually the boat it's attached to that's the issue. There are few if no keelboats that would stand up to the lever arm of a cat rig that would sail well in a reasonable amount of wind, and most keelboats have so much drag that you're more interested in getting enough power to move at the expense of pointing.

The slot does create more lift, but at the expense of angle of attack. Marchaj has a graph; no slot, max C(L) 1.6 at 14 degrees; one slot, 1.8 at 18 degrees; 6 slots, 3.6 at 45 degrees. So a 3 jib ketch has a lot of slots and more power but won't point as high.

As far as the AC 45s are concerned, they have to sail in a tight course, lots of tacks, so my guess is there is the compromise of being able to make (relatively) quick tacks. If your tacking performance is too slow there are no tactics on the upwind legs, bang the corners and hope you're in sync with the gusts. Not an interesting race to participate in or watch. Ever try to tack a Hobie 14? An 18 square is cat rigged, sails much better than a 14, but is still slow coming out of a tack compared to a sloop rig.

I don't remember exactly what happened but the Formula 40 cats didn't want jibs, would go upwind better without them, but whoever wrote the class rules forced them to have one, so they went with the smallest jib they could get away with. And again the C-class cats don't use jibs and they could if they wanted to.

John
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Old 18-12-2011, 16:20   #37
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

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One's Italian and the other British Colonial. Actually they are the same with Bermudan rig predating Marconi by a century or two Bermuda rig - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
...which shows the limits of wikipedia.It thinks they are the same,too...
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Old 18-12-2011, 17:21   #38
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

are you really trying to convince me that if you put a cat rig on a J24 for instance, that it would beat all the other J24's around the race course??? I'm sorry, but I'll believe that when I see it on the water! If this were true there would be a multitude of cruisers racers being sold instead of sloops.... sorry, I'm a skeptic!
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Old 18-12-2011, 18:11   #39
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post
Yes it's rare for a cat rig to be faster upwind, it is not universally better, but not because of the rig type, it's usually the boat it's attached to that's the issue. There are few if no keelboats that would stand up to the lever arm of a cat rig that would sail well in a reasonable amount of wind, and most keelboats have so much drag that you're more interested in getting enough power to move at the expense of pointing.

John
The above is from the post you are refering to. Let's see, J24, it's a keelboat, it has a little keel and limits the amount of people you can hang on the rail to keep it upright, yup fits in the category of "few if no keelboats that would stand up to ... a cat rig"

My response was to what goes upwind best. A cat rig will point the highest, but you need a low drag, high righting moment boat to make use of the ability to point. Note my first sentence in the above post was "Yes it's rare for a cat rig to be faster upwind, it is not universally better", that was said because of the specialty boat that you need to take advantage of it. Then you add that I have to be wrong because we don't see it on cruising boats.

Nice job of taking my post completely out of context.

John

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are you really trying to convince me that if you put a cat rig on a J24 for instance, that it would beat all the other J24's around the race course??? I'm sorry, but I'll believe that when I see it on the water! If this were true there would be a multitude of cruisers racers being sold instead of sloops.... sorry, I'm a skeptic!
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Old 19-12-2011, 07:38   #40
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

The original Bermuda rig (actually, leg'o muttin, with large headboard), was heavily raked with no spreaders. Main halyard then had good vertical lead to be used as a cargo lift from midship hatches. It was largely developed when Bermuda controlled Turks and Caicos salt trade, and boats beat from here to there.
Became known as Marconi when fitted with multiple spreaders and stays, ala the radio mast.
Look up schooner "Spirit of Bermuda" and you will see a replica of an 1834, IIRC, rig.
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Old 19-12-2011, 10:39   #41
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

Sorry about the miscue John. Reading between the lines, somehow it still seems like you're telling me that a cat will go around a course faster. I'm just a non believer. Peace!.
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Old 19-12-2011, 11:11   #42
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

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Originally Posted by David M View Post
It is simple, one mast, one boom and four stays. The more complex you make a system the more likely it is to break.
whoa!when's the last time I saw a marconi rig with 4x rigging wires?6xsure...simpler than a square rig-true.
Simpler than an unstayed pole with a triangle sail?not.

I think marconi is everywhere because the Rich switched to win all the races,when Gaff rig was the norm 'round the course- a ratings beater in other words.
Because Racing was a huge factor in the development +manufacturing of all vehicles-AirPlanes,cars,motorcycles and boats....ie:Saab or AustinMini ads featured the "rally winner"...not so true today,but then-well,twas a BIG deal...
ie: ("The Spitfire evolved from the Supermarine line of Schneider Trophy (seaplane) racers of the late 1920's and early 1930's, which culminated in the trophy winning S.6B of 1931. In September of that year, the S.6B captured the Trophy with a top speed of 340.8 m.p.h., and set a world speed record of 407 m.p.h.")

in Italy;Bugattis ,Daimlers and MGs fighting it out round the track etc,etc.
Racing everything was very very important news and sailboats were sucked into the vortex.
What we have here is the vaunted (in this instance,for once,true!) "trickle-down" effect.
if you grant me a bit of hyperbole,we are struggling to break out from a "Marconi rig" atrophy comparable to the Chinese fiat that stopped the building of any ocean going junks...
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Old 19-12-2011, 12:12   #43
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

RACING!!!! No other reason!
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Old 19-12-2011, 13:27   #44
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

Or not sailing at all.. liveboards in a marina have no needs for better :P
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Old 19-12-2011, 17:55   #45
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Re: Why is the Marconi rig so popularů?

so if I understand corectly...a cruiser not interested in racing has no need for the extra complications of a marconi rig?

strictly speeching of long distance cruising ( not marina hopping) a cat rig, lug rig, junk would be a batter rig ??
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