Why is my mast so thick on my "lightly built" boat?

[VinnyVincent]

Okay this is possibly the worlds dumbest thread, but I am curious...

So I've been around enough boats now in the size range of what I have to be able to do a little comparison to the one I bought.
Compared to a tartan 27, morgan 30, irwin 34(about the same on this one), catalina 27, columbia 28 and a few others, I notice that my mast is bigger.(around, not taller)
I haven't actually measured any of them, but it is substantially bigger around than most of the boats on this list.

However, from what I understand the Newport 28 I own is a very lightly constructed boat(which I wouldn't argue, you can tell the hull is thinner/less supported when sailing in rough conditions than say, the morgan or the tartan. It also gets thrown around more)

Why would they make the mast so thick on a lightly constructed coastal/lake boat? Lower quality aluminum? Thinner gauge? It's not any taller, so that can't be it...

I'm not the only one who has noticed. Several people have commented on it.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Aww Vinny???

Show off your thick stick and be proud !

Let's do a little research, but my first instinct is deck stepped vs keel stepped...

Decker's need to be a heckuva lot stiffer than keelers of the same air draft rig height

[VinnyVincent]

Ah yes, I was waiting for the "mast envy" comments.

So is thicker better than longer?

What you say makes sense, though. I never considered that and I think most of those boats are keel stepped. The catalina 27 also had a smaller diameter mast, but then I think it is also a few feet shorter and also has a little less sail area and ballast, but not much. They weigh about the same. I'm not really educated on all the factors that would determine mast size, though, which I guess is why I am having to ask the question.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by VinnyVincent

Ah yes, I was waiting for the "mast envy" comments.

So is thicker better than longer?

What you say makes sense, though. I never considered that and I think most of those boats are keel stepped. The catalina 27 also had a smaller diameter mast, but then I think it is also a few feet shorter and also has a little less sail area and ballast, but not much. They weigh about the same. I'm not really educated on all the factors that would determine mast size, though, which I guess is why I am having to ask the question.

They say that size isn't everything... And I suppose it is possible with both attributes you end up pleasing finding fewer that can accommodate...

Boy... I'm by no means an expert... But I know more about mast design parameters than most know about their partners...

Step 1 is finding or calculating (better) the righting moment of your boat... Abbreviated RM, or RM30 for the moment at 30 degrees... and then deciding on a rig height, keel v deck, and spreader/stay configuration... gives you a number...

A unitless number... in/in... Yessir... Moment of inertia... xx and yy (athwart/fore-aft) also known as the stiffy index... (naaw... I just made that up) the higher the RM... The stiffer the stick...

Once you know how stiff your rig needs to be... (I'm being really good here...)

THEN.... you pick your stick out of what's available... (wouldn't that be nice?)

[a64pilot]

Often times in manufacturing pieces parts are picked based on cost and availability, not necessarily with being the best part, you'll drive yourself nuts sometimes trying to figure out what the designers were thinking, then you realize accounting dept picked X part, not a designer.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Often times in manufacturing pieces parts are picked based on cost and availability, not necessarily with being the best part, you'll drive yourself nuts sometimes trying to figure out what the designers were thinking, then you realize accounting dept picked X part, not a designer.

Sounds like maybe somebody has had some issues with this in the past...????

Mr. Engineer/Mechanic/Boat Owner/Pilot...

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

Sounds like maybe somebody has had some issues with this in the past...????

Mr. Engineer/Mechanic/Boat Owner/Pilot...

Happens all the time, designed a baggage compt on our new airplane a couple of years ago, used some DC-9 cowling latches we had laying around, ran out of them and they were I think $40 buck a piece, four required. Owner of the company says "I'm not paying that much for a latch" so we probably spent significant money on changing to a crap Walmart toolbox style of latch from Grainger, that takes much longer to install, and is junk, looks and feels like junk, saving maybe $100 on an $800,000+ airplane.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Happens all the time, designed a baggage compt on our new airplane a couple of years ago, used some DC-9 cowling latches we had laying around, ran out of them and they were I think $40 buck a piece, four required. Owner of the company says "I'm not paying that much for a latch" so we probably spent significant money on changing to a crap Walmart toolbox style of latch from Grainger, that takes much longer to install, and is junk, looks and feels like junk, saving maybe $100 on an $800,000+ airplane.

Insane isn't it???

I see it all of the time too... Fighting the bean counters as well as the fruity designers... "oh!!! ... that would look dreaaaaadful !!! " *said with a swishingly flair*

Hey... Where's Vinny go... ???

I wanted to show (off) him part of my stick!

[VinnyVincent]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

They say that size isn't everything... And I suppose it is possible with both attributes you end up pleasing finding fewer that can accommodate...

Boy... I'm by no means an expert... But I know more about mast design parameters than most know about their partners...

Step 1 is finding or calculating (better) the righting moment of your boat... Abbreviated RM, or RM30 for the moment at 30 degrees... and then deciding on a rig height, keel v deck, and spreader/stay configuration... gives you a number...

A unitless number... in/in... Yessir... Moment of inertia... xx and yy (athwart/fore-aft) also known as the stiffy index... (naaw... I just made that up) the higher the RM... The stiffer the stick...

Once you know how stiff your rig needs to be... (I'm being really good here...)

THEN.... you pick your stick out of what's available... (wouldn't that be nice?)

Well...

Apparently the RM30 of the newport 28 is 17 and the tartan with the board up is 11.6 and 13.6 with board down(not sure if this is an accurate calculation)...the catalina 27 with a fin keel is 12.2..

I have no clue what any of these numbers mean, but that's what the calculator I used came up with.

[CharlzO]

Just a random question to the OP - Are you sure your mast is original to the boat? Not saying it isn't or anything because I'm not familiar with them. But I was just wondering if it was possible that a previous owner replaced it with something bigger. Someone posted a picture of another Ex26 like mine that has a mast that appears way larger in diameter than all the others, so I can only assume that's what happened. So I was just curious if that had happened to you also. Just curious is all

[ryon]

What is the wall thickness compared to the others? Given the same materials, a larger outside diameter with thinner wall thickness *could* be stiffer/stronger with less weight.

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by VinnyVincent

Well...

Apparently the RM30 of the newport 28 is 17 and the tartan with the board up is 11.6 and 13.6 with board down(not sure if this is an accurate calculation)...the catalina 27 with a fin keel is 12.2..

I have no clue what any of these numbers mean, but that's what the calculator I used came up with.

Without having the same EXACT rig configuration, height, deck/keel, spreader height, spreader length, spreader sweep, forestay-backstay angles, shroud angles fore-aft-athwart, baby's and angles....

it's like you are comparing apples with Tiki Torches.... No can do....


BUT... You basically hit the reason... Stiffer boat (higher RM) = stiffer stick = bigger diameter... or wall thickness... The latter being the dreaded weight aloft enemy

[VinnyVincent]

Originally Posted by HappyMdRSailor

Hey... Where's Vinny go... ???

I wanted to show (off) him part of my stick!

Well, unless it's stiff like mine...it won't do much good

[VinnyVincent]

So...forgive my ignorance, but does that suggest that my boat is "stiff"? Because that sucker heels over pretty easily. Maybe it's the extra weight aloft from the huge, stiff mast?

[HappyMdRSailor]

Originally Posted by VinnyVincent

Well, unless it's stiff like mine...it won't do much good

HA HA!
Oh it's stiff alrighty... and that's only the bottom 60'...

I put this picture up prematurely (yes intended) because I was going to save it for a new post titled:
a) Breakin' the law
b) Cannonball mast run
c) Smokey and the spar

Originally Posted by VinnyVincent

So...forgive my ignorance, but does that suggest that my boat is "stiff"? Because that sucker heels over pretty easily. Maybe it's the extra weight aloft from the huge, stiff mast?

Ignorance is always forgiven in the form of a question.... There's a ton of stuff I don't know one end from the other...


Yes, it's supposed to mean your boat is stiffer, but being on a Newport, didn't seem so to me....

Absolutely for sure if somebody put a big thick stick on it, it would make it a ton more wiggly...