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Old 07-10-2010, 21:40   #106
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What's wrong with hands-on attitude to learning? What is the 'such a commitment' part all about? People get boats and go sailing.
barnie
Clearly the best way to learn boat handling skills is by handling a boat. However, IMHO, (note the O), some folks make the leap into big boat sailing rashly. Marinas in North America are replete with people who take their new boats out endangering others and those on their own boats. People start threads suggesting they are going to quit their jobs, sell the house, and go cruising. And they haven't cruised before. I consider that a big commitment.

Going cruising is a little like having your first child; if you wait until you are ready you will probably never do it. But babysit the nieces a few times first.

To the OP, the Bavaria thing is mostly bias, but not all. A hull/deck joint attached with bolts to an inward flange, a reasonable bilge, structural bulkheads laminated on both sides, pan/ no pan construction, hull shape, storage and tankage are all things to think about when buying a boat, and in one way or another all of the larger production builders will fall short here or not meet an 'expectation' of many forum members. Then again so will any other make! That's why there are so many different builders (albeit and unfortunately far fewer than a few years ago).

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Old 07-10-2010, 22:16   #107
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80% of the new sailor posts are dreams. I am a big supporter of dreams. I guess that for every 100 new sailor posts less than 20 actually get out there.

But everyone has to start somewhere so the, "I have never sailed but plan to circumnavigate next year" posts are totally fine with me.

It engages people to dialog and begin understanding if their dreams and plans are realistic.

I cater to the 20% who make it. Lots of people have taken off with "minimal" experience and if done correctly every circumnavigation starts with coastal cruising and learning on the job.

It's just not realistic to tell everyone, "Take all the classes, do deliveries for 10 years, gain a 10,000 mile resume before even thinking about going out."

Almost every sailing location has coastal cruising and my advice is usually, "Get some sailing time, get some classes, get the boat, do some coastal cruising, go to (the bahamas, Mexico west, Phuket, the med, etc.) to stretch your experience envelope. Do what you can do when you think you are ready and stay conservative."

We all start with a bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. Fill the experience bag before the luck bag runs out and you will be fine.
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Old 08-10-2010, 10:20   #108
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Hull/liner construction is a problem if you are in the middle of an ocean, hit a submerged container, and need to access the hull from the interior to effect a hull repair or stop a leak. So called stick built almost always offers better access to the hull.

Access to the hull is the primary reason to favor stick built construction, even admitting they are both equally strong.
Sorry , have you ever tried steming a leak from the inside, Hit a submerged container hard and it doesnt matter what you have stick or hull liner.

Ive been on "stick built " boats that had terrible hull access, as they had cedar panelling everywhere insode the lockers.

In reality very very few people need access to the hulls, its a rare situation. Equally there are Hull liners and there are hull liners.

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The best blue water boats commit a lot of interior space to storage. Many of the coastal cruiser/charter boats don't.

Storage, tankage, and ground tackle arrangements are important differences between coastal and blue water boats. Have you ever heard of a blue water sailor complain that his/her boat had too much storage or tankage?

Seaberths is another hallmark. I've seen some recent production boats that had none. Zilch. Because sleeping is what marinas are for.
Now were getting closer to the heart of teh matter. Its about systems and design, but any production boat can have its storage improved extra tanks added, anchor platforms beefed up etc. Eqaully their are many boats that make so called "bluewater" lists that have poor storage, compromised tanks and no where to sleep. IN fact the disappearance of sea berths has occured accross all types of boats in recent years. ( There not in modern HRs either).

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Old 08-10-2010, 11:29   #109
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I do not care if the older HRs are slow or not because if a boat is too slow you simply get the bigger one (we are talking HR, so money no object, right?). Then again what is slow? How much safety do you get from a boat sailing 9 vs. one sailing 7 knots - 50 miles a day difference.

I would agree that a fast boat can be safer. But to be fast we forget HRs or Oysters and we go for a Pogo 40, Cigala 14 and the likes. Then you will sail 15 knots+ and get extra 200 miles vs. the 'slow' boat - enough to get to the safer side of a tropical depression in time. BTW both are cheaper than HR or Oyster. How strange so few of those TALK of going FAST sail such boats.

The older HRs may be slow but they are also safer - especially in the Scandinavian context where one touches a rock more than once in their life. You can do it more than once in the older HR but I am not sure about the new FASTER ones. And also because they are FASTER.

I have sailed probably most of the mass production boats (OK - I have sailed Bavas, Benes, Jeanneaus, Dehlers, Hanse, Hunter, i.a.) and I did not notice any difference in design nor in execution. There are better or worse models in each make and I think they are all great for weekend sailing and some of them are good enough for longer trips, especially when big and new.

So, I say Bavarias are great. And meanwhile I will stick to my human designed, hand-made, long keel hull designed and built in Sweden.

b.
Mmm, yes. With regard to slowness -- waterline length makes up for a multitude of sins. My boat is not slow, but I am not the best sail trimmer in the ocean, having somehow forgotten most of what I learned dinghy racing in my youth. But never mind -- if the wind gets up enough, none of the hot sh*t racers on the Solent can keep up with me (at least, those under 45 feet), because you eventually get to the point where brute force meets your bow wave, and if you've got 10 feet more waterline length, then -- bye!

Well, HR's are gorgeous, of course. I always angle to get invited on board HR's in new ports just to soak up the atmosphere. I completely understand the appeal. But they would be that much better, with efficient underbodies.
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Old 08-10-2010, 11:37   #110
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It's good to see you guys have been keeping this thread busy whilst I have been risking life and limb sailing a Bavaria 39 for the past three days

It was a good experience to see what it is like to sail on a 2000+ modern yacht (the last modern yacht I sailed on was a First 405 back in the late 80's) and it was a good way to realise that sailing is actually as fun a I remembered it was

Probably the most important thing I established from the past couple of days is that roller mains suck I just don't like them as it just felt and looked wrong when ever I looked up at the main. Sure it was convenient and the Bavaria's Selden roller worked well but it just did not work for me.

We had a mixture of conditions from dead calm and sunny to force 7 on the nose with heavy rain. We took the easy way out and motored when hit by the force 7 as it was coming from Corfu, which was our destination.

In general I did not mind the Bavaria. The B39 I sailed and the couple of B38's I viewed did not look as cheap an plastic on the inside as the show boats I have seen, although there were still cheap looking things inside. The was a massive amount of space inside but a lot of it felt wasted. At the base of the stairs there was enough room to swing a cat and it felt like it could have been better arranged to have more storage. The galley was along the port side and I feel a L/U shaped galley may better utilise the space.

It feels like you do get a lot of boat for your money and I can see why charter companies and large families go for the Bavaria's.

Is a Bavaria a boat for me? Probably not.

There are a lot of Bavaria's on the market which does help with bargain hunting but also worries me when it comes to resale and sellability later down the track. The biggest reason why the Bavaria is a "probably not" is that there is something about the lines of the Bavaria's that just does not grab my interest (the new Farr's are another matter).

I like the lines of Jeanneau Sun Odyssey more. So tomorrow I will take a flight to look at a Jeanneau SO40 that ticks all of the boxes.

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Old 08-10-2010, 11:45   #111
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Dear Hoppy,

well i do have different thinkings to mass boats in generall. BUT think
about price and..... you get what you pay for, simply as that.
I like to say you can not pay a SKODA and expect a MERCEDES.

I agree totally with Jim ask the people on the boatyards... but you
will hear many different opinions from ALL mass production boats.

We chartered them all, Dufour, Bavaria, Benneteau, Jeanneau
not yet Hanse ( this is pure Ikea in my opinion) and to be honest
the Bavaria 46 we had two years agoo was very fine.
If i would choose one of those type for long term cruising is a whole
different story.

We are sailing in the Baltic sea and for this area any Bavaria or mass boat
will be fine. But buying a boat means for me a lot more than just sailing.
Starting with the hull: full laminate or not ? and so on.

Find the boat you like and you can handle and simple as that....
be happy with it
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Old 08-10-2010, 11:53   #112
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80% of the new sailor posts are dreams. I am a big supporter of dreams. I guess that for every 100 new sailor posts less than 20 actually get out there.

But everyone has to start somewhere so the, "I have never sailed but plan to circumnavigate next year" posts are totally fine with me.

It engages people to dialog and begin understanding if their dreams and plans are realistic.

I cater to the 20% who make it. Lots of people have taken off with "minimal" experience and if done correctly every circumnavigation starts with coastal cruising and learning on the job.

It's just not realistic to tell everyone, "Take all the classes, do deliveries for 10 years, gain a 10,000 mile resume before even thinking about going out."

Almost every sailing location has coastal cruising and my advice is usually, "Get some sailing time, get some classes, get the boat, do some coastal cruising, go to (the bahamas, Mexico west, Phuket, the med, etc.) to stretch your experience envelope. Do what you can do when you think you are ready and stay conservative."

We all start with a bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. Fill the experience bag before the luck bag runs out and you will be fine.
I hope I make the 20

Chartering the B39 with a skipper by myself cost me an arm and a left testi, but was well worth it as it gave me a chance to realise I am not totally insane trying to go from fading memories of sailing to ownership of a 37-40 foot yacht, so maybe it will happen
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Old 08-10-2010, 14:47   #113
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It's good to see you guys have been keeping this thread busy whilst I have been risking life and limb sailing a Bavaria 39 for the past three days
Well we're just amazed glad you made it back!
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The biggest reason why the Bavaria is a "probably not" is that there is something about the lines of the Bavaria's that just does not grab my interest (the new Farr's are another matter). ...tomorrow I will take a flight to look at a Jeanneau SO40 that ticks all of the boxes.
Hoppy, can you buy lottery tickets in Sweden? Bruce's latest will be built by your neighbours on Orust and I suspect will fly like the wind...

Let me know if you need a jib trimmer- I can push a button as well as anybody
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Old 08-10-2010, 15:56   #114
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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post


Now were getting closer to the heart of teh matter. Its about systems and design, but any production boat can have its storage improved extra tanks added, anchor platforms beefed up etc. Eqaully their are many boats that make so called "bluewater" lists that have poor storage, compromised tanks and no where to sleep. IN fact the disappearance of sea berths has occured accross all types of boats in recent years. ( There not in modern HRs either).

dave
G'Day all,

The above is certainly true, but by the time one performs all those retrofitting tasks the cost of the "cheap production boat" will surely be approaching the "expensive limited production boat", and you still have the hull shape and construction issues to deal with.

Cheers,

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Old 08-10-2010, 17:23   #115
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I do not think he meant Gold plated tanks etc
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Old 08-10-2010, 19:37   #116
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I completely understand the appeal. But they would be that much better, with efficient underbodies.
No, you do not.

Wait and sail into Swedish waters - like anywhere between Goteborg and Oslo (this is where HR, Najad and Malo happen to be build).

Then you will understand why a HR does not have the bottom of a Pogo.

As you can see in all new boats from any of the three boatyards their underbodies are as efficient as safety reasons allow.

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Old 12-10-2010, 03:08   #117
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This is turning into one of those "Production" vs. "Quallity" boats for long distance cruising. To make such discussion meaningfull it is important to make it as real life as possible. Locking in on a budget is probably most important as that is pretty fixed for most people, it being low or high.

Comparing "Production" vs. "Quality" at a fixed price point typically moves into New vs. Old. Different opinions are well vented.

But if, not older than 5 years is a hard criteria, how do they compare.

For the same price as a 0-5 years old 42 foot Bav/Ben/etc, you get a 32 foot HR. If you then apply typical long distance cruising criterias (safty, storage, tankage, comfort at sea/hook, reliability, etc, etc), which comes out on top. As an example, which boat is safest. A Bav-42 or a HR-32?. The only point the HR will likely win is in reliability.

In all other criterias it is hard for many to see why a HR-32 is better than a Bav-42 for long distance cruising.
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Old 12-10-2010, 04:00   #118
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No, you do not.

Wait and sail into Swedish waters - like anywhere between Goteborg and Oslo (this is where HR, Najad and Malo happen to be build).

Then you will understand why a HR does not have the bottom of a Pogo.

As you can see in all new boats from any of the three boatyards their underbodies are as efficient as safety reasons allow.

b.
I was referring to the Enderlein HR's. By "more efficient underbodies" I was referring to the type of underbodies which Halberg-Rasseys began to have after German Frers started designing their boats in the early '90's.

I would also not like to have the "underbody of a Pogo" where I sail. I think even Frers has gone too far with some of the latest HR's, with their spade rudders.
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Old 12-10-2010, 07:58   #119
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In all other criterias it is hard for many to see why a HR-32 is better than a Bav-42 for long distance cruising.
Yup. But we were not talking a 32 vs. 42 before you entered this room. It is you who introduced this comparison by the way of financial constraints.

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Old 12-10-2010, 08:08   #120
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No, you do not.

Wait and sail into Swedish waters - like anywhere between Goteborg and Oslo (this is where HR, Najad and Malo happen to be build).

Then you will understand why a HR does not have the bottom of a Pogo.

As you can see in all new boats from any of the three boatyards their underbodies are as efficient as safety reasons allow.

b.
Ahhh that explains it, HR, Najad and Malo are designed for people with poor seamanship and navigation skills. The Volvo drivers of the seas
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