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Old 01-10-2014, 06:18   #16
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Re: Which to choose?

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Originally Posted by Terra Nova View Post
Most/all anchorages will require that you carry insurance. Most/all insurance companies will require a survey.

Due diligence.
Yes the marina requires insurance but- Actually no- our insurance does not require a survey- I suppose if it was a more expensive on it would but our State Farm which is who we have house, 3 cars, a truck, and 3 boats with currently does not. We have 2 boats at the neighborhood yacht club now-fishing boats, but I have already spoken to out insurance lady and it is not required. So yes, I am doing my "due diligence".
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:21   #17
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Re: Which to choose?

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Originally Posted by delmarrey View Post
And why a sailboat. For just a liveaboard power boats have a lot more room and facilities.
Because I don't want a power boat- I want a sail boat- I don't want to go out on the lake on the weekends in a power boat- I want to practice sailing. I don't need a lot of room and faclilties. Having a power boat will not provide me with the life style I am working towards.
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Old 01-10-2014, 06:26   #18
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Re: Which to Choose?

Thank you! This is exellent advice and I will make a spreadsheet today! A couple questions - what do you mean by "underwater configuration"? I want a draft of 4' or less for the lake and river conditions but ignorantly thought that most sailboat hulls are shaped the same- other than keel design- which I don't think is a deal killer as long as the draft is good. Am I not looking at something correctly?
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Any of these used boats well be more suitable by their condition and care than by any particular quality of their original manufacturing. You must be able to evaluate these boats by direct inspection and best with someone who knows boats. I would construct a rubric with a list of critical qualities,- as an example:

1. suitable draft & underwater configuration
2. condition of engine
3. condition of rigging and sails
4. Galley amenities
5, working head & holding tank
6. comfortable layout
7. leaks and interior water damage
8. electrical circuits & shore power connections
9. deck condition,- soft spots
10. overall cosmetic condition

Your list might vary, but this is a good sample. Look at the individual boat and give each factor a value from 1 to 10 in order to make a critical comparison and take the best, but nothing less than 7.5! You'll be surprised how many 4.2's are on the market. Don't "fall in love" with some pretty lines,- be critical and stick to the rubric. Be patient! Do be upset if something you like sells before you seal a deal. There's always a gem out there waiting,- it's the buyer's market!
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Old 01-10-2014, 07:40   #19
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Re: Which to Choose?

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Originally Posted by biker6977 View Post
I plan to become a live aboard- woohoo!
There is a small but nice Marina in Bainbridge GA where slips are $200 a month including power, wifi, showers and grills. There are also laundry facilities .

I will be getting 1 month temp housing and on my first check a $6400 signing bonus which is what I plan to use to purchase the boat.
It will be just me and possibly a cat.

I do want at least 5'6" of head room as I don't want to be stooped all the time.
I will be sailing it on the weekends to improve my skills- we just took our first class and will finish keel boat 101 this weekend.

Caroline
CLASSIC PEARSON 26 SAILBOAT

dufour 30 sailboat

30ft Newport Sail Boat Sale / Trade

1972 Columbia 26

a Sailboat 27' Hunter

@@@@1975 Catalina 27 Sailboat and dinghy @@@@ $4,750 obo

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*** Cherubini Hunter 27 - Must Sell ***

http://keys.craigslist.org/boa/4678353550.html

has trailer
1977 O'Day sailboat 25' "reduced price"

1975 Bayliner Buccaneer sailboat for sale in Alabama

27' Buccaneer Sailboat
The marina is cheap but do they allow liveaboards? Check that out.

Stay away from the Buccaneers unless the ONLY thing you want is housing. All but the last few Buc's were models designed by power boat designers and they are horrible sailers. This was during the fuel crunch of the mid-70s and Bayliner was trying to keep from going under due to dropping power boat demand.

The Cat27 would be an acceptable liveaboard, the Cat30 much better and both sail fine.

The Columbia 26 would also work. I am 6'2" and could stand up under the bubble and hunch over everywhere else. At 5'6" you should be able to stand everywhere except maybe the very forward end of the cabin. Fine sailor but a bit of weather helm, nothing terrible though.

Previous argument about mainsheets in cockpits applies to wheels even more, when not sailing the tiller tilts up out of the way leaving more room for cockpit living space. For this size boat the effect is enormous. Also a tiller is better for sailing. Wheels are good when you have a lot of short term guests aboard or have a boat where the rudder is so unbalanced you need the mechanical advantage, but that doesn't occur until you get to about 40'. Go for a tiller.

That's the end of my first hand experience.

The following is second hand knowledge.
The Cherubini Hunter and the Dufour have good reputations as sailing boats, especially the Dufour.

Opps, time to go to work.
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:22   #20
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Re: Which to Choose?

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Originally Posted by Adelie View Post
The marina is cheap but do they allow liveaboards? Check that out.

Stay away from the Buccaneers unless the ONLY thing you want is housing. All but the last few Buc's were models designed by power boat designers and they are horrible sailers. This was during the fuel crunch of the mid-70s and Bayliner was trying to keep from going under due to dropping power boat demand.

The Cat27 would be an acceptable liveaboard, the Cat30 much better and both sail fine.

The Columbia 26 would also work. I am 6'2" and could stand up under the bubble and hunch over everywhere else. At 5'6" you should be able to stand everywhere except maybe the very forward end of the cabin. Fine sailor but a bit of weather helm, nothing terrible though.

Previous argument about mainsheets in cockpits applies to wheels even more, when not sailing the tiller tilts up out of the way leaving more room for cockpit living space. For this size boat the effect is enormous. Also a tiller is better for sailing. Wheels are good when you have a lot of short term guests aboard or have a boat where the rudder is so unbalanced you need the mechanical advantage, but that doesn't occur until you get to about 40'. Go for a tiller.

That's the end of my first hand experience.

The following is second hand knowledge.
The Cherubini Hunter and the Dufour have good reputations as sailing boats, especially the Dufour.

Opps, time to go to work.
Thank you, the marina does allow live aboards- first thing I asked them- they seem quite friendly too.
I wondered about that with the Buccaneer- it looks rather like a bath tub hull which is too darn bad as it's the only one with "true" walk in shower.
Good to know about the headroom as I thought many would be too low.
I do like that Dufour- not sure why as it has no vberth or double berths- I just like the look of it.
For sure it will be tiller- is it possible to relocate the traveler or must it be at the end of the boom? ( yes I'm ignorant)
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Old 01-10-2014, 09:55   #21
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Re: Which to Choose?

Traveler can move. Back of the cockpit would be most convenient but boom is too short on Dufour. Front of the cockpit works, too. Creates some cabin access issues underway but alleviates live aboard problems. Moving traveller onto cabin top would require replacing boom and gooseneck with stronger parts. I wouldn't.


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Old 01-10-2014, 11:13   #22
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Re: Which to Choose?

Well, I have found a couple more- I really really like the twin keels- don't ask me why as I have no experience with them but the idea appeals to me.

1980 Westerly Konsort sailboat for sale in Virginia

1970 Westerly Tiger sailboat for sale in Illinois

1974 Westerly Centaur sailboat for sale in New Jersey

any one have experience with these?
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:19   #23
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Re: Which to Choose?

I'd go with the best of the Dufour 30, Catalina 30 or Newport 30. Probably in that order. You don't want to feel like you are camping and have to go to work daily. 30 ft can be somewhat comfortable.
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Old 01-10-2014, 11:39   #24
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Re: Which to Choose?

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I'd go with the best of the Dufour 30, Catalina 30 or Newport 30. .
++ on that. IMHO, for your purposes the C30 would be my first choice except for the traveler in the cockpit. (That may just be because I'm quite familiar with the C30)

The fact they all say they have good diesels is a big plus at that price point.

I'd skip the really small boats - if you can get a beamy 30ft (Newport, Catalina) - it's really a much better amount of room for living aboard. And they sail just fine.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:40   #25
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Re: Which to Choose?

I know this isn't what you want to hear, but I would prioritize a safe, comfortable living space above all, but condition.
In other words I'd buy the best condition boat that had good living accommodations over a good sailor any day. You'll spend hundreds of hours living in the boat for each hour sailing.

Having said that I'd go for the 30' Catalina, which I believe is a very good sail boat too, not just a living space.
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Old 01-10-2014, 12:55   #26
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Re: Which to Choose?

10-12 hours a day at work, 45 minute commute each way, 8 hours sleeping, 1 hour shopping and mousing around, an hour walking, leaves very little time to relax on board so the limited space isn't really much of an issue. However the entire weekend I will be sailing or piddling around on board- hopefully most time not sailing will be in the cockpit reading. I have appointments to go look at some this weekend which might completely change my thinking as all is theory since I've only looked at a couple and they were hideous- nothing like the description or decade old picture in the ads. I want to try minimalist living- I will be taking 7-10 sets of work clothes and 4 weekend outfits for clothing, 1 pair work shoes, 1 pair tennis shoes, 3-4 sets of flip flops/ sandles. Kindle for reading, electric tea pot for cup of soup and out meal, crockpot for dinners. bedding. 1 set of dishes and a few utensils, 1 computer and camera.
I've lived very sparsley in the past and got away from it. I miss it, all the "shtuff" of everyday life is weighing me down.
Time to purge!!!!
The car is going and I will be on 2 wheels when not on foot or boat.
But like I said- once I go see a couple of these I may change my mind and opt to go bigger........never say never
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Old 01-10-2014, 13:55   #27
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Re: Which to Choose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by biker6977 View Post
Thank you! This is exellent advice and I will make a spreadsheet today! A couple questions - what do you mean by "underwater configuration"? I want a draft of 4' or less for the lake and river conditions but ignorantly thought that most sailboat hulls are shaped the same- other than keel design- which I don't think is a deal killer as long as the draft is good. Am I not looking at something correctly?
"Correct" is not a fast rule, but what you look for in underwater configuration needs to match what you want and how you will use the boat. For my needs, I like a long keel to compensate for my desire to have a shoal draft. Since I poke around in a lot of shallow water, I want a well protected rudder and having the rudder contiguous with the keel keeps me from snaging crab & lobster pot lines. I also much prefer an encapsulated keel as opposed to a bolted on keel that is more subject to corrosion and the failure of keel bolts. You may also add the condition of through hull fittings in this category and deduct value in the rubric for undesirable items like gate valves and weak or corroding fittings. Someone more interested in speed, performance and maneuverability would give higher marks for a fin keel, deeper draft and maybe a free standing rudder. The point is to shop for what you want while rating the value of used boats.

Another need is to shop for functional reliability. A gas powered, raw water cooled 25 year old Atomic 4 likely has little life remaining. Old steel tanks will likely need replacing,- can they be replaced in their current location without the need to reconstruct a large part of the boat?
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Old 01-10-2014, 14:15   #28
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Re: Which to Choose?

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"Correct" is not a fast rule, but what you look for in underwater configuration needs to match what you want and how you will use the boat. For my needs, I like a long keel to compensate for my desire to have a shoal draft. Since I poke around in a lot of shallow water, I want a well protected rudder and having the rudder contiguous with the keel keeps me from snaging crab & lobster pot lines. I also much prefer an encapsulated keel as opposed to a bolted on keel that is more subject to corrosion and the failure of keel bolts. You may also add the condition of through hull fittings in this category and deduct value in the rubric for undesirable items like gate valves and weak or corroding fittings. Someone more interested in speed, performance and maneuverability would give higher marks for a fin keel, deeper draft and maybe a free standing rudder. The point is to shop for what you want while rating the value of used boats.

Another need is to shop for functional reliability. A gas powered, raw water cooled 25 year old Atomic 4 likely has little life remaining. Old steel tanks will likely need replacing,- can they be replaced in their current location without the need to reconstruct a large part of the boat?
Thank you Again Hudson! more good advice- learning more all the time.
I have to say I am feeling a bit overwhelmed with what all to look at and think about- is this normal or am I in over my head? Friends and family are telling me I'm nuts (I already knew that) and that I need to just get an apartment- but it's not what I want- my soul is saying "live on the water" get ready to be free in a few years. I'm listening to my gut but it's hard to shut others out when they are close respected friends and family.

Time to update my spread sheet
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Old 01-10-2014, 17:45   #29
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Re: Which to Choose?

G'Day Biker,

With respect to Hudson's latest advice, consider this: his advice is correct for someone choosing a boat to go cruising in, and for a long time at that. It seems to me that what you are looking for is first a "home on the water", second a boat to learn to sail locally in and third, something that you can sell on when you are through with this phase of your life.

The choice of keel shape (fin vs full), rudder location, means of attaching the keel and so on don't really enter into your calculations very much. Any of the boats that you have mentioned (at least the ones with which I am familiar) all would pass the basic requirements, and few of them would be a good choice for serious long term cruising, for that is a different world entirely!.

Obviously, a clapped out Atomic 4 will make it a bit harder to sell the boat on in a few years... but it will also drive down the price that you will have to pay for it. Whether it will suffice for your learning sailing should be determined by a competent mechanic, but the same advice holds for a younger diesel.

So, my thoughts are:

Buy a boat that is comfortable for you physically.

Buy a boat that passes a survey, and negotiate the price with the knowledge gained by the survey. This should get you a boat whose price actually reflects its value, and this in turn means that you shouldn't get hurt badly when you sell her onward as you plan to do.

Don't obsess about things like tiller vs wheel, sloop vs cutter, gas vs diesel. In the long run they will not be all that big a deal. Remember, there are thousands of folks who have purchased and loved vessels on either side of each of those arguments... it is mostly a personal thing, not do or die significance.

As others have said, finding a boat that is within your budget, that you can live on as you yourself find adequately comfortable, and that is able to be sailed as is without too much additional work/additions... this is your goal as I see it.

Good luck in your search and your life afloat.

Jim
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Old 01-10-2014, 17:53   #30
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Re: Which to Choose?

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Originally Posted by biker6977 View Post
Well, I have found a couple more- I really really like the twin keels- don't ask me why as I have no experience with them but the idea appeals to me.

1980 Westerly Konsort sailboat for sale in Virginia

1970 Westerly Tiger sailboat for sale in Illinois

1974 Westerly Centaur sailboat for sale in New Jersey

any one have experience with these?
No personal experience, however, IIRC, they don't have opening ports. Makes ventilation a truly bad issue. Check carefully.

Also, if they were built in the UK, make sure the wiring has been upsized to handle USA electrical.
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