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Old 14-06-2015, 08:08   #106
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by Steady Hand View Post
What follows is written in good humor (I have had to remove a few of my more humorous ribald comments for fear of offending any less salty sailors) and is not intended to poke or disrespect anyone.
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Tiller vs. Wheel Wars?

I have enjoyed reading this thread because I like tillers….no…I like wheels….no…tillers.

I took Jim Cate's initial post as humorous and to the point, which I will paraphrase as "Even simple tillers can fail."

I did not see his comments as mean spirited or denigrating in any way.

In fact, I think he also contributed some important points which tiller owners should consider (maintenance of the tiller parts etc.).

His later comments showed he is not "anti-tiller," but instead is aware that they can fail too.

I also saw humor in the "orgasmic" phrasing, as it seemed to be a complement to the poetry posted before. As I see it, writing poetry about a tiller seems to be pretty emotional.

And finally, Delancey's mention of his tiller failure (of just a few months ago) does seem to confirm what Jim Cate was trying to state initially: (again paraphrased by me as) Even simple tillers can fail.

The world is not just Black and White. There are (more than 50) shades of grey.

And, lest folks think I prefer a tiller or wheel, I have sailed big boats with both and would have either on my own boat. And with each I would look for the possible points of failure and maintain those parts appropriately.
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Old 14-06-2015, 08:30   #107
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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..... I get grumpy with all the BS about how bad all wheel steering systems are compared to the orgasmic simplicity and strength of a tiller.
Jim
Jim, I think I have been using our tiller incorrectly all these years .

SWL
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Old 14-06-2015, 08:35   #108
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Jim, I think I have been using our tiller incorrectly all these years .

SWL
Our tiller ????
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Old 14-06-2015, 09:05   #109
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
Yes, the core of my cockpit sole was also totally rotten, thanks wheel!
Sounds emotional to me. Perhaps it wasn't the wheel at all. Perhaps the wheel worked just fine...but oh...lets just write that down to poor maintenance.

I too love tillers. I also like transom hung rudders. But I agree that they are probably not optimal on larger boats. Yes I know that you can find them on large CALs and Delancey conversions, but I don't believe its easy to steer in heavy seas.

Perhaps we need to call in the Nac Mac Feegles to straighten out this argument...
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Old 14-06-2015, 10:52   #110
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Jim, I think I have been using our tiller incorrectly all these years .

SWL


And to think I went to the effort to remove some of my ribald humor in my earlier post, in order to protect the innocents on the forum.

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Old 14-06-2015, 11:29   #111
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Hardly a round-the-world-solo-race boat since Dodge Morgan's American Promise that has been equipped with a wheel. The only TP 52's with wheels are the one's the owner insists on being able to drive.

Dual wheels are nice when things are really rough because two can drive, I'll give you that but otherwise my favorite rationale for why wheels are better is the notion that "my vessel is too big and too powerful to be handled by a simple lever-arm, especially when conditions are too rough"

Haha. Haha.
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Old 14-06-2015, 11:38   #112
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Photo of a sister ship to our boat in France. Didn't find this photo till after our purchase. Only confirmed what I already knew, that our cockpit what never intended to have a wheel.
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Old 14-06-2015, 11:41   #113
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Not really...some of us took physics and have been applying it real world for decades.

Nothing wrong with having a tiller...

Just the same as it is not wrong to have wheels teeming even power steering at that.....or even owning a sailboat at all.... shouldn't beheld against a person.

Before itty bitty feelings are hurt....over half of my boating years were owning sailboats...with and without tillers and even with worm gear wheel steering.....which was pretty bullet proof on my Cape Dory 30 ketch with heavy use by the previous owners and me.
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Old 14-06-2015, 15:03   #114
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Jim, I think I have been using our tiller incorrectly all these years .

SWL
Ahh, SWL, you slay me!! But the big question from the tiller is, was it good for you, too??

Best laugh of the day...

Jim
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Old 14-06-2015, 15:40   #115
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by Seaworthy Lass View Post
Jim, I think I have been using our tiller incorrectly all these years .

SWL
Now I understand why one skipper I used to race with regularly liked to stand and straddle the tiller when running downwind.
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Old 14-06-2015, 15:53   #116
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

As I said before, I like tillers, and I like wheels.

But there is a distinct disadvantage to a tiller ….

You can't do THIS (see photo) with a tiller.
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Old 14-06-2015, 15:54   #117
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Re: tiller all the way.

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
To paraphrase the Motown hit by Edwin Starr, Wheels, uh, what are they good for, uh, .....absolutely nothing!!!

I hate wheels. Grab ahold of one on a dark, cold and stormy night and watch it eat your fingers. I find them way more tiring to steer than a tiller. Even on a boat with a heavy weather helm, they are way tiring than standing trying to hang on to that frigid piece of steel. Feel, there ain't no feel in a wheel.

Really think that there are a lot of people getting into sailing later in life or from a power boat background and think anything that moves should be steered by a wheel. They haven't come up through the ranks of small boats and felt the control and sensitivity of a tiller. Also think there is a lot of pure snobberyl to a wheel, after all, have you seen a Hinckley with a tiller. Listen to the way people brag about them in there for sale ads makes you wonder whether they are selling a boat or an Edson. Same type of people who will pay three times what a shirt is worth simply because it has some idiot riding a horse with a mallet embroidered on it and then the shirt doesn't even come with a proper pocket.

I've made a single handed passage from SF to LA in 3 1/2 days with a tiller steered boat that could only politely be called heavy on the helm. Never had a problem with being tiresome though 72 hours without sleep left me a bit wierd. Have sailed other boats with wheels on short overnight sails and been totally
exhausted by the lack of feel and fighting the backlash of the wheel as it beat my fingers into pulp as the boat pitched into the swell. The wheel made what should have been a short enjoyable overnight sail into a torture session.

As the mechanical advantage of the wheel increases, the feel decreases. Hard to have one with the other. If you don't have much mechanical advantage your my suffer from the wheel beating you to death. Lot's of mechanical advantage and it's like sailing with a guaranteed unbreakable, 6 mil. prophylactic. Ever wonder why the wheels always have that fancy bit of rope work on one spoke, it's 'cause they can't tell whether the wheel is pointing, north-south or at the moon without it.

Wheels add unecessary additional mechanical problems to the simplicity of a tiller. How many boats have been lost because their wheel steering went tits up when it really counted. Just talked with a friend who is talking of selling his super whizbang toy filled cruiser and giving up sailing because of all the bad feelings and animosity generated by a failing hydraulic steering system on a passage from Australia to Fiji.

Most wheels are stuck way the hell and gone back in the max spray area of the boat. Just love to get nailed by icey water when I'm forced to drive. Probably has something to do with keeping the rest of the cockpit available for deck apes. Maybe that's why the rich and famous hire Kiwi's to drive their boats, they are crazy enough to stand back there and take it. So much nicer to be tucked up under the dodger as you beat into a late season NorEaster when steering with the tiller.

I'm a fan of wind powered self steering. Simple, mechanical, no electrons and no pollution. The direct connection of the tiller to the rudder, with its inherent lack of friction, makes those simple airborne systems work like a charm. Not necessarily the case when even a super powerful pendulum servo vane has to do battle with the friction inherent in a wheel. People claim that wheels take so much less energy to steer. How much of that energy is eaten up by useless resistance. Autopilots are probably becoming so popular is they deal with the inherent friction of the cables, sheaves and sprockets of typical wheel system with brute force. Of course if you go with an A/P, you have to add all the expense of feeding it's voracious electrical needs. Additions that can easily cost many times more than the A/P.

As far as single handing, a tiller makes it so easy. You can steer by straddling the tiller and use your legs to steer. That leaves both hands free to work the sails, the engine controls, make up dock lines or even grab a beer.

About the only good thing about a wheel is in port. Actually it's not the wheel but the pedestal. You take the wheel and throw it overboard but use the pedestal to mount a table. Is handy to have that table for drinks and pupu's in the cockpit. Of course you can still have a table with a tiller, it just isn't as easy to set up.

Ah!! and then there's the inside steering station. Hope I don't ever get so decrepit that I have to turn into that kind of pseudo sailor. When I feel an overwhelming need for an inside steering station, the trawler people will have an answer.

If you feel you have to have a wheel, have at it. For me, I'd rather use the boat unit or two of expenditure for something useful like an extra sail, self-tailing winches, radar or an extra year of cruising.

Aloha
Peter O.
^^^ what he said, ten years ago^^^

Physics fanboys can explain what friction does to a feedback system.

They can also tell you the simplest test to compare the robustness of two different components or assemblies is to try to use one as a tool to render the other inoperable.

My money is on the lever. Anybody with a wheel steering system want to try and take me?
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Old 14-06-2015, 16:18   #118
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Re: tiller all the way.

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
^^^ what he said, ten years ago^^^


My money is on the lever. Anybody with a wheel steering system want to try and take me?
Yeah whatever...

What he said about hiding from the spray and the windvane I would agree.
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Old 14-06-2015, 16:24   #119
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Re: tiller all the way.

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Yeah whatever...

What he said about hiding from the spray and the windvane I would agree.
yeah well, you got into sailing later in life and started out as a power boater so.....
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Old 14-06-2015, 17:07   #120
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

I never owned a power boaty in my life. But I never had a sailboat boat over 26 feet either.
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