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Old 13-06-2015, 22:38   #91
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

oh Yeah???? Dont mess wif the Monkey either De-Lance-HEY!
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Old 14-06-2015, 00:47   #92
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by Delancey View Post
You're usually a pretty rational guy but here you demonstrate you are strongly emotional about this topic. You seem much more reactionary than usual.

If you would care to qualify the above statement, I'm all ears.
Strongly emotional??? I dunno about that, but OK, here goes:

I have owned two wheel steered yachts and one tiller steered yacht, one tiller steered trailer sailor and one tiller steered day sailor.

The tiller broke in half on the trailer sailor (Catalina 22). No problems with the tilller on the Yankee 30, but the rudder head fitting kept getting loose at sea. Did about 25,000 miles in that boat. The wheel steering on the old IOR boat never gave me any trouble beyond lubricating the sheaves every couple of years, and the light in the binnicle compass dying every ten minutes or so. did 86,000 miles in that boat. The wheel steering in Insatiable II has given no problems in 45,000 miles, save lubricating things periodically. It has very low friction (can spin the wheel from lock to lock with one flip of the wrist), and gives good feedback to the helmsman. What's not to like?

Incidentally, I-two was originally tiller steered as built. But on the builder's voyage from Japan to the Aleutians, his wife found the tiller steering to be too physically demanding in the big following seas, so they converted to wheel when they arrived in Canada. The tiller is still there, ready to go instantly and effectively (although a bit shorter than originally), and I have used it as an experiment. I like the wheel better.

Is that reactionary, Delancy? I dunno... it is my own hard won experience speaking. You and all others are welcome to steer with tiller, wheel, whipstock, joystick or whatever you enjoy and can fit on your own boats. If I change boats again, I could revert to a tiller, who knows? But it won't be because wheel steering is inherently worse.

Jim
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Old 14-06-2015, 04:51   #93
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Strongly emotional??? I dunno about that………………...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Cate View Post
…. the orgasmic simplicity and strength of a tiller…..

Jim
Sounds emotional to me
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Old 14-06-2015, 05:40   #94
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

The average tiller sailor relaxing at home in front of the TV

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Old 14-06-2015, 05:49   #95
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

89 posts in and you jump down some tiller fan's throat telling him that "he be wrong" and then proceed to use terms like "BS" and "orgasmic" to inform other people their opinions are invalid?

Okay then, not emotional or reactionary. I guess you just like to denigrate people randomly and for no reason.

I think everyone can agree that an inherently complex mechanical system can be reliable if both properly engineered and maintained just like everyone can agree your day sailor tiller failed because it was either not properly engineered or not well maintained.

The same way everyone can agree that complex mechanical systems are more expensive, require more maintenance, and are more prone to failure than inherently simple systems which are both easier to engineer and maintain.

Doesn't change the fact that wheel steering remains inherently complex and tillers remain inherently simple and so I am left wondering why you bothered to comment at all? Particularly since you claim you really don't care what others use to drive their boats.
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Old 14-06-2015, 06:04   #96
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Anyone check the bolts that secure their pedestal lately? Here's what mine looked like when I got rid of my wheel and installed a tiller. How's that for reliable!

Yes, the core of my cockpit sole was also totally rotten, thanks wheel!
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Old 14-06-2015, 06:24   #97
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Usually more complex systems show up in vessels, vehicles, etc because of needs, wants and desires.

If one can live with the simplicity of a well engineered tiller, and its limitations, great.

If one prefers a wheel and it's versitility, its complexity is not really not all that complex in view of spaceflight, and ensures the engineering is sound...and the once a decade or so maintenance...then so be it.

Like most this or that arguments in boating...they are more about perception than reality.
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Old 14-06-2015, 06:28   #98
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Funny how simple truths go out the window when they don't fit someone's position.
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Old 14-06-2015, 06:33   #99
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Well, Delancy, perhaps I expressed myself poorly. In my first post i was responding to the cute statement that folks with wheels carried emergency tillers, but folks with tillers didn't carry emergency wheels. I could have better said that folks with tillers maybe should carry emergency tillers for when something broke... for they do in fact sometimes fail.

You asked for some "qualification" or some such, so I did my best to show how I came to my opinion. I guess it didn't work. Too bad.

Enjoy your tiller.

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Old 14-06-2015, 06:36   #100
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Simple truths are only as simple as the parameters set.

You seem to be more dug in than others.

Jim didn't say the guy was flat wrong..he pointed out that IF that gentleman didnt think tillers can have failures also...then he was wrong...no big deal till you made it one.

Based on my experience in 50 years of boating, both recreational and professionally...


I have spent more hours sanding and painting/vanishing tillers than I have repairing mechanical steering.

My experience..others can believe it or not....but to say one is "better" wouldn't fit my concept of "correct"...but I will agree that for the most part tillers are "less complex"....but not automatically prone to failure.

Correct or simple truth is only a perception in most forum discussions....too many variables left unsaid.
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Old 14-06-2015, 06:55   #101
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by psneeld View Post

I have spent more hours sanding and painting/vanishing tillers than I have repairing mechanical steering.
Ok, so you like a nice looking tiller. That's your choice. I just knock the old varnish off as it peels.

Tillers are much more practical on a smaller boat say 30' or less. They allow for much for room in the cockpit and are practically maintenance free.

I have yet to replace the packing....
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Old 14-06-2015, 07:08   #102
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Funny little snit to wake up to here. I didn't take Jim's comments as "strongly emotional." I think he lays things out fairly and reasonably. I thought he was trying to be a bit cutsey with his "orgasmic simplicity and strength of a tiller" line, but that did seem to match the prior comment's tone.

I love our tiller on our heavy displacement 37-footer. Thought I wouldn't, but do. I also had no serious problems with our edson wheel arrangement on our last boat. Both have plusses and minuses, like virtually all boaty decisions.

But back to the best line of the week: "orgasmic simplicity and strength of a tiller" ... sounds like a bumper sticker, or maybe a logo for a new beer. Beautiful. Thanks for that Jim. You just made my weekend .
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Old 14-06-2015, 07:19   #103
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Perhaps I am the one who has expressed myself poorly as lessons I have learned through my +40 years sailing and tens of thousands of miles apparently contradicts the experience of others.

I have had several wheel steering systems fail in a variety of modes but so far never a tiller short of a couple months ago frost biting a Sunfish.

I would feel much better if people didn't just take it for granted that their gear has been properly engineered and maintained lest the damn thing unships itself during demanding conditions such as big following seas.

And for god's sake don't leave your emergency tiller buried in the bottom of some locker somewhere. When your wheel breaks, it won't be during a sunny day.
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Old 14-06-2015, 07:32   #104
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Quote:
Originally Posted by thomm225 View Post
Ok, so you like a nice looking tiller. That's your choice. I just knock the old varnish off as it peels.

Tillers are much more practical on a smaller boat say 30' or less. They allow for much for room in the cockpit and are practically maintenance free.

I have yet to replace the packing....
Ah...start placing specifics and now the discussion enters the realm of reasonable.

I don't disagree with many specific strengths and weaknesses of either system(s).

I just disagree with the sweeping statement that Jim pointed out first....that tillers "seem" problem free....and added that complexity for good reasons that if done correctly can have minimal failures and maintenance. Though I will acknowledge the comments Jim referered to might be more cutsie than dead serious.
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Old 14-06-2015, 07:55   #105
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

What follows is written in good humor (I have had to remove a few of my more humorous ribald comments for fear of offending any less salty sailors) and is not intended to poke or disrespect anyone.
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Tiller vs. Wheel Wars?

I have enjoyed reading this thread because I like tillers….no…I like wheels….no…tillers.

I took Jim Cate's initial post as humorous and to the point, which I will paraphrase as "Even simple tillers can fail."

I did not see his comments as mean spirited or denigrating in any way.

In fact, I think he also contributed some important points which tiller owners should consider (maintenance of the tiller parts etc.).

His later comments showed he is not "anti-tiller," but instead is aware that they can fail too.

I also saw humor in the "orgasmic" phrasing, as it seemed to be a complement to the poetry posted before. As I see it, writing poetry about a tiller seems to be pretty emotional.

And finally, Delancey's mention of his tiller failure (of just a few months ago) does seem to confirm what Jim Cate was trying to state initially: (again paraphrased by me as) Even simple tillers can fail.

The world is not just Black and White. There are (more than 50) shades of grey.

And, lest folks think I prefer a tiller or wheel, I have sailed big boats with both and would have either on my own boat. And with each I would look for the possible points of failure and maintain those parts appropriately.
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