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Old 03-06-2007, 21:52   #76
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Trim tabs and hydraulic steering without rudder position indicators(s) is not the way I would go. The drag you can add to the boat with these systems is significant.

Better to center the rudder and balance the sails.

Of course trim tabs or hydraulics to overcome high rudder pressures is fine but you gotta know where the rudder is...
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Old 04-06-2007, 05:02   #77
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For what it is worth, the higher pressure wave on a boat with fuller bow sections moves the apparent center of lateral resistance further forward in the boat with increased boat speed and so that weather helm increases with increased boat speed. Fuller bow sections tend to decrease the tracking capability of the hull which is generally a large percentage of the overall hydrodynamic component of tracking.

The finer bows currently employed in modern yacht design is one of the reasons that newer boats generally have a more balanced helm over a wider range of windspeeds than more traditional designs. On the other hand it requires a lot more skill to design a modern hull with a fine bow in a manner that does not cause the boat to change longitudinal trim with heel angle. Of course, in recent years, the better designers have pretty consistently been able to design fine bowed designs which are longitudunally trim neutral up to pretty high heel angles.

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Old 11-10-2013, 02:44   #78
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

I'd like to remove the cable steering from my 36' 12 ton cutter. Any reason to doubt the long term use of a 3' emergency tiller post? Suggestions on creating a weather seal where the post passes through the deck?
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Old 11-10-2013, 03:30   #79
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by dennisail View Post
I never had the chance to use a wheel untill a while ago on a steel Roberts. Prior to that it has always been tillers. I hated wheel. It was much harder to keep the boat straight in swell and had little feedback.

It takes some getting used to, but on my boat standing gives me that feedback through my feet. Someone pointed this out some days ago and I realized that I preferred standing in waves.
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Old 11-10-2013, 03:32   #80
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Connemara - You're on your own - I moved up to 36 feet.
Now I can't afford the Greek sailor's cap.

Dang. Now you can't look like a puffed-up boat owner.
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Old 11-10-2013, 04:06   #81
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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I'd like to remove the cable steering from my 36' 12 ton cutter. Any reason to doubt the long term use of a 3' emergency tiller post? Suggestions on creating a weather seal where the post passes through the deck?
Round stainless steel plate with 4 bolt holes to match the existing pedestal pattern, bolted down on butyl tape. Paint top surface of S/S plate with none slip paint.

A 3ft tiller might be a little short, any space for a longer tiller?

Pete
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Old 11-10-2013, 05:33   #82
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Round stainless steel plate with 4 bolt holes to match the existing pedestal pattern, bolted down on butyl tape. Paint top surface of S/S plate with none slip paint.

A 3ft tiller might be a little short, any space for a longer tiller?

Pete

That's a lot of boat for only 3' of tiller. In additio the effort needed to use such a short tiller, it also tightens the range of motion. That's fine on a smaller boat, but on a bigger boat, you'll have more finesse in the steering with a longer tiller. In an emergency you do what you can, but even there, you can take your emergency tiller to a good metal fabrication shop and they can make you a longer one. It was probably made short just to make storage easier, but you don't have to store it in the cockpit. The emergency tiller for my31' boat is really short, too. Hmmmm...
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Old 11-10-2013, 06:25   #83
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by M C View Post
I'd like to remove the cable steering from my 36' 12 ton cutter. Any reason to doubt the long term use of a 3' emergency tiller post? Suggestions on creating a weather seal where the post passes through the deck?
First thing I did when I bought my boat was to tear the wheel out, couldn't be happier with that decision. My boat is 40',weighs 18,000 pounds, and has a fin keel with a balanced spade rudder.

I took a guess at the tiller length but ended up a little short so will be remaking this winter. No big deal, I used skid lumber from the loading dock and spent more time varnishing it than making it. I've always been big on full size mock-ups and expect,when ever I do something new, that I might have to do it twice to get it right.

What you would be looking for to weather seal the rudder post would usually be called a lip seal. Whether you can find one easily depends on the diameter of what you have to work with. In the end it might not be that necessary, depends on you set-up below the deck, what your top and bottom bearing arrangement is, and so forth. Got any pictures?
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:01   #84
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

Good feedback about the tiller length. I was referring to my concern about torque on the steel post that fits over a square end atop the rudder tube in the engine compartment. The extension post rises above deck level through an access hatch (how to weather seal). I'll take photos today. The previous owners planned to use a painted 2x4 piling fender as the emergency tiller so I'll need to find/craft an attractive, functional tiller and extension.

Oh yeah, feeling a boat underfoot in combination with the tiller, the give and take of pressure from wind above and current below - sailing - ah, wonderful!
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Old 11-10-2013, 07:19   #85
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by M C View Post
Good feedback about the tiller length. I was referring to my concern about torque on the steel post that fits over a square end atop the rudder tube in the engine compartment. The extension post rises above deck level through an access hatch (how to weather seal). I'll take photos today. The previous owners planned to use a painted 2x4 piling fender as the emergency tiller so I'll need to find/craft an attractive, functional tiller and extension.

Oh yeah, feeling a boat underfoot in combination with the tiller, the give and take of pressure from wind above and current below - sailing - ah, wonderful!

There's no doubt you feel more with a tiller, but you'll still feel the boat spring to life when you get things "just right." sweet!
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Old 11-10-2013, 08:30   #86
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by M C View Post
Good feedback about the tiller length. I was referring to my concern about torque on the steel post that fits over a square end atop the rudder tube in the engine compartment. The extension post rises above deck level through an access hatch (how to weather seal). I'll take photos today. The previous owners planned to use a painted 2x4 piling fender as the emergency tiller so I'll need to find/craft an attractive, functional tiller and extension.

Oh yeah, feeling a boat underfoot in combination with the tiller, the give and take of pressure from wind above and current below - sailing - ah, wonderful!
Tiller, oh tiller!
Shall I compare thee to a summer's day?

One thing I should mention, don't be surprised if you discover play in your rubber bearings once you get rid of that darn wheel, as did I.

Due to the inherent lack of sensitivity of a wheel, you could have issues with your rudder bearings to which you are totally clueless about. As has been said, it's the things you don't know you don't know about that are the problems you have to watch out for.

I would be interested to see a show of hands of people who have wheels AND have ever checked their rudder bearings.

My guess is most haven't, and if they have any issues they don't know about it because the wheel masks them. The simple test would be to detach the steering cables, install the emergency tiller, and give it a shake.
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Old 11-10-2013, 10:58   #87
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Good idea to install and test. The boat is in the yard so now is the time.

BTW - lovely poetry.
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Old 13-06-2015, 19:11   #88
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

At the risk of reviving an old and long thread - I have seen boats with wheels that carry emergency tillers. I have never seen a boat with a tiller that had an emergency wheel.

As a Cape George 36 driver with a simple barn door rudder and tiller, count me firmly in the tiller camp.
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Old 13-06-2015, 21:55   #89
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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Originally Posted by AuroraGH View Post
At the risk of reviving an old and long thread - I have seen boats with wheels that carry emergency tillers. I have never seen a boat with a tiller that had an emergency wheel.

As a Cape George 36 driver with a simple barn door rudder and tiller, count me firmly in the tiller camp.
If by this you mean that tillers never fail, well, you be wrong! I've seen tillers themselves break, rudder heads break, the clamping action of the rudder head slip, the key securing the tiller head to the rudder post shear... lots of failure modes.

I have nothing against steering with a tiller, but I get grumpy with all the BS about how bad all wheel steering systems are compared to the orgasmic simplicity and strength of a tiller. They both have their places, and when well engineered are quite reliable.

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Old 13-06-2015, 22:19   #90
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Re: wheel vs. tiller steering

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I get grumpy with all the BS about how bad all wheel steering systems are compared to the orgasmic simplicity and strength of a tiller.
You're usually a pretty rational guy but here you demonstrate you are strongly emotional about this topic. You seem much more reactionary than usual.

If you would care to qualify the above statement, I'm all ears.
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