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Old 29-07-2012, 19:12   #16
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Originally Posted by europaflyer

That's the odd thing, there are no electronics inside, no chartplotter, not even radios. They're boats intended to be navigated completely from the deck. That's OK for day sailors, but it's no good for a cruising boat - and Bavaria pitch their yachts as 'cruisers'. You're a delivery skipper I believe, do you really want the only navigation and communication tools on an unfamiliar boat to be stuck up in the wind and rain on deck?

I don't believe their 'market research' is working for them, I've hardly seen any on the water - at least in the UK.

I'm sure we'll reach some common ground on yachts some day Dave, but we seem to disagree on production yachts even when I'm not being too nasty about them for a change!
I wasn't saying I like them, I'm a reasonable mid of the road traditionalist. I particularly like good chart table setups and I hate over instrumented binnacles.( for me autopilot controls are all I want behind the wheel ) but I understand what sells boats and the goal of Bavaria is just that. Yes I see lots of them in any harbour around Europe. Remember traditionalists rarely have any money and buy secondhand.

Bavaria is a very successful company with a big range of well engineered sail and motor boats. Given a choice I prefer beneteau or jeanneau ( though they are going down the micro chart table route too ) as these are a step above Bavaria. I sailed a reasonable number of older and newer Bavarians, there's no doubt that the older " ocean" line was better put together.

The fact is I don't understand your criticism, your obviously not the target market, but thankfully , traditionalists like you could buy rustler or bowman or even the new moody ( Hanse ) trad line etc. of course you'll need deeper pockets.

Dave
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Old 29-07-2012, 19:19   #17
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Originally Posted by europaflyer

You're right, they moved from J&J to a collaboration of Farr for the hull and BMW Designworks for the interior. Looks about as inspiring as the average BMW...
What's wrong with bmws, a hugely successful company. Currently bucking the trend. BMW design works is a cutting edge design shop with several super yacht interiors to its name. You and I mightn't like it but then are we at the leading edge of style , I think not !!

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Old 29-07-2012, 19:44   #18
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

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Originally Posted by micah719 View Post
GBN, if it weren't for the fact that Celestial quoted your post, I wouldn't be able to see it. Down at grassroots level ordinary Germans are hurting and can do nothing about what the ptb have gotten them into, yet again...but beer and footy and keeping up with the Von Jones' keeps them distracted from the divide & conquer, the rape & pillage, and from asking serious questions. The Eu is not finished, unfortunately, and the current crisis is not an accident but an opportunity made to order.

Ok, thread derail and polsci rant over, though it is connected...back to Bavaria. Business conditions, and target market, are likely to be the driver behind the change. If I were on speaking terms with my brother, I'd ask him about it...he works tight with Bayerische Mist Wagen and fits perfectly into the scene that sails and drives and lives that flavour of thing.
Not jaded at all are we!

Most who can not read German would not get your little jab at BMW.

To translate, it is the rough equivalent of Bavarian $h!tt Vehicle.

That is not a view most of the world has of BMW.
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Old 30-07-2012, 03:55   #19
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
You and I mightn't like it but then are we at the leading edge of style, I think not !!
And I suppose that's pretty much the answer to the question...
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Old 30-07-2012, 04:10   #20
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

Bavaria claims that a lot of features in their now boats is in response to what their customers have told them they want in their boats...
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Old 01-08-2012, 19:18   #21
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

well first I would like to say that, I hope Bavaria doesn't bring its marina queen poison to Grand Soleil!

As to Bavaria’s sharp change, you can thank their competition for that, especially to the production leader. They have to make money, compete. People seem to want boats that are comfortable at dock, not at sea (hence the condo cabin and fat transom). This is asserted by the boats their competition currently produce, hunter, Dufour and Beneteau all have boats similarly marina friendly.

Now to the quality of high production boats opposed to “higher quality” boats. Hunter compared to Tartan, Hunters hull is hand-laid fiberglass and polyester resin in a female mold opposed to Tartan's vacuum-infused epoxy-laminate construction. This superior building technique has allowed for a 15 year blister free warranty (ha I sound like a marketer)! Then add to the fact that hunters glass to resin is around 30% glass to 70% resin while tartans is about 65% glass to 35% resin, you begin to see the difference between quality and normal.
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:18   #22
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Not jaded at all are we!

Most who can not read German would not get your little jab at BMW.

To translate, it is the rough equivalent of Bavarian $h!tt Vehicle.

That is not a view most of the world has of BMW.
Jaded? Hmmm, probably not a sufficient adjective. Try living here, after living 32 years in Australia. If one takes the blinkers off, reads a lot of history (not necessarily the text-book kind...), talks to a lot of people, and watches wold events, one is sure to get the jitters. Hence my plan to build a boat. In Australia. As soon as possible.

Yes, I called BMW a manure wagon (manure is the best translation). Yes, they are nice cars, in my opinion only second to Audi. But I've given up on cars, I want a hull and masts. At the moment I drive a Renault, when it lets me. Back in Aus, I'd get a utility, perhaps a Landrover or Hilux or Landcruiser Troopie. My little dig at "prestige" has its reasons. Probably the same antipathy would express itself if I bothered looking at the production boats and the created needs they are meant to fill. Maybe it's time to speak to my brother again, see what's going on there at BMW's boat division. One thing's for sure, our economy is creaking under load and the little fellows in the factory at Bavaria probably don't give a manure what they're turning out as long as they have a job...and from the guys I speak to on various building sites, there are plenty more potential cruisers but too firmly aground. Or coralled, in a way. A gilded cage...
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Old 02-08-2012, 11:43   #23
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

Compared with daysailors/weekenders, blue water sailors are a non-event sales wise.....
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Old 28-08-2012, 04:14   #24
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

Looks like whatever happened... SAIL Magazine loves it....best monohull cruiser under 50 feet. Pretty impressive. Nice looking boat for a good price! Wouldn't want to go off shore in it.
http://www.sailmagazine.com/boats/bavaria-45-cruiser&cat=207&name=BEST%20BOATS#[/URL] Best Boats 2012: Bavaria 45 Cruiser | Sail Magazine
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Old 28-08-2012, 06:04   #25
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

Maybe I am representative of the target market? I hope to buy a boat one day and, in the mean time, I charter boats.

I don't love sailing offshore - it's a way to get places, not the purpose of the trip.

A cruising sailboat will have to be an alternative to a house because I cannot afford both. This means a fully functional condo with enough tankage and power to be independant of marinas for a week or two at a time. This does not mean independant because I am the old man of the sea with a fish in my teeth and no showers, wearing the same clothes for a month. This means a hot shower every day, clean clothes, good food, and a happy wife who has all she requires for comfort without fatigue.

My dream is to cruise the coast and hop over the gulfstream from time to time. I'd love a full-length deep-V keel that swishes in a seaway instead of pounding everyone's brains out. But, if I insist on that I will never have a boat. I'd rather be a fair weather sailor than just read about it in magazines.

I am not looking for an older offshore boat built on the assumption that the gentleman owner would tolerate discomfort for yachting, run the boat with a crew, and live in a fine house most of the time.

If I ever own a boat, it will be a home first. Would I rather have a Hinkley 52 with a crew and a house in the Hamptons and never ever move my jaw to talk? Maybe... maybe not... but that is not going to happen.

I do not dream of circumnavigating. I do not want to camp my way around the world. I've been around the world for my job. Lesson learned: we've got it made in the USA.

So, maybe these firms are looking to sell boats to people who cannot afford gold platers and aren't looking to circumnavigate, anyway. That's me. There might be more like me...
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Old 28-08-2012, 06:44   #26
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

While we have no interest in the Cruiser line (very IKEA, as the OP said), we LOVE the brand new Vision (well, in pictures anyway). We love the lines and they include many of the things you complain about (although the chart table does seem a bit far fore) and the layout really makes sense to us, especially in the two cabin version, which leaves a lot of storage space - there is a walk in lazarette! (quite odd in the three cabin, as you walk in through the shower, but we aren't interested in the three cabin).

We gush over the 42 that still only exists as technical drawings. We want some rich American to buy one as soon as they are available, work out the kinks, outfit it and sell it to us in a few years. Heck, if they were to come out with something in the high 30's, we would be even happier, but realize that the modern market is for the 40's. We are only glad the we don't have the cash to get one right now so that it isn't us working out the kinks on a new model.
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Old 28-08-2012, 07:47   #27
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Unhappy Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

WOW, looks like Bavaria made the cover of next months (September) Cruising World Magazine... I have no desire to cross the oceans.... may have to consider this one. I don't like the aft cabins though.
- September cover: A Bavaria 50 Cruiser cracks off on a fast reach. The sailboat makes its North American debut just in time for the fall boat shows.
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Old 28-08-2012, 08:10   #28
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

I've had a bavaria - now I have a jeanneau. The jeanneau is a better blue water boat. Bvarias are generally for coastal cruising.

I also thnk the new bavarias are ugly, but there are lots of people who like them and that what sales is all about
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Old 28-08-2012, 10:23   #29
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

All that I said before stands, but it is true that among yachtominiums, I would probably not select the Bavaria line. I have been impressed with Jeanneau's build quality but not their tankage. The current crop of Beneteau Oceanis boats look pretty good, to me. I've seen them on the water but not sailed them.
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Old 28-08-2012, 11:52   #30
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Re: What's happened to Bavaria?

When looking at boats at the boat show in Annapolis a few years back I noticed that the interiors were losing the "boat" or "yacht" look and acquiring the "camper" look. I am not a fan of being inside a boat and not being sure it was really a boat. I suspect this new look has it's origin more in saving money than it does in a revision to modern and desirable style.
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