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Old 03-10-2009, 23:38   #31
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Hi everybody,
I will try and make selkection a bit easier, first I just would not be compfotable in a ferro yacht no matter what, It would constantly nag at me and therefore take the joy out of the whole cruising dream (I know some are quite proven and many have circumnavigated and are well constructed, thats just me personally)

I suppose we would consider some aft cabin designs but still prefer an aft cockpit.

As I mentioned we have saved 20K AUD but now we have a line of credit for another 20K AUD so if the right deal came along right now we could spend up to about 35-38K (have to leave some money for surveys and haulout etc.) Now that would only be suitable for a local sale. Within 6 Months we could probably afford that price in NZ or abouts. To buy further away we will need another 1-2 years most likely.

So Im thinking if we want sooner than later we will look at Aus, Tas, NZ and if we dont find anything for a while we will then have enough to search in the americas too.

My wife assures me that we dont absolutely need quarter births as she would be happy for the Kiddies to share the V birth and us to use the main cabin then in time if we outgrow the yacht we could upgrade later. Personally I would be happy with that as well but I like at least one quarter if possible.

I am going to start another post to get peoples advice on yachts I think could be contenders and how they compare.
So far most of the suggestions here are still on the high price (but not all) here is a link Comparing suitable yachts for family Ocean going

I really apreciate the insight and support from everybody and everyones personal views. It helps keep my thinking in check even if some views are different then mine, or perhaps a better way to say it is; that all your views help to refine and temper my thoughts......
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Old 04-10-2009, 00:52   #32
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Ok, I am not an expert on Oz or US boats & prices, but your budget seems simply too small for something that could be sailed trans ocean within a reasonable time frame.........unless you luck into a deal / steal.
Team Goat is correct, and I do know the Aussie prices.

If you really want to subject a 2 year old and a baby to the riggors of the ocean on $40k you're nuts. (said in the nicest possable way with a view to: "temper my thoughts")

Let me tell you that we know what the costs are and as hard as it is for you, it will be a hell of a lot harder for you if you put to sea thinking you can do it on a wish and a prayer.

Just an EPIRB with integrated GPS is reasonable percentage of the value of your boat. And yo expect to be given if for free in some super deal?

Also the shitlocker thats worth $40k will be a pain in the neck to sell. Maybe 2 years till you can flog it... but you want to buy another in 2 years? So you will buy one and put it on the market? There ain't no market! Look at Boatpoint and you will see the same boats as last year.

A 1970's $40k boat does not require a sailor... it requires a ship buider!

A new baby requires clean water, hot water, refrigeration, electricty all the things that a worksite of a boat will not supply.

A 2 year old "terrible two's" requires clean water, bath times with hot water, a clear area to safely crash around in.

Now can I mention to you what a contingency fund is? Can I mention how much it needs to be. How it will never have enough in it. How you will make one little mistake and it will screw the fund up so bad you will be miserable to the max.

The people who we have met whilst crusing ALL have threats to their lifestyle.
Its NOT storms, or pirates.
The threats are: Boats that don't go; partners that don't want to be there; money.

Mix 2 together and we see people with a look in their eyes that you see on bridge ledges.

Now, there's the crux. If an old boat needs work where can you do that work. At a marina. And that costs money in Australia like you wouldnt believe. $2,000 per month in Sydney, no cheaper up the coast.
To work on the boat at anchor is very difficult. No power tools, a pain to run back and forth to the shops etc. A pain to get to work.


Have a second think about it all. If you can live simply as you say then why not work till you can afford a boat and the lifestyle?
Plus think about what you are really after: do you want to travel the world? Or are you looking for a substitute home for the one the banks wont let you buy?



Mark
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Old 04-10-2009, 02:47   #33
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ok you get a boat that fits the budget the problem is the main cost of owner ship is maintance and after those costs you will still have to save 10 of thousads to get the boat up to safety standards. keep dreaming and start working hard you can do anything if you work hard enuff.
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:01   #34
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Matkj is correct! When I first read this post my thoughts were "is this for real" having looked at yachts both sides of the Pacific and yes they are cheaper in US but not by the amount required. That kind of money would not buy a decent "trailer sailor" to sail the bay!
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:22   #35
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Well I guess I need to clear a few things up then,

It apears some assumptions are being made.

First about our situation and next step. You see if we buy now I would not be setting off into the sunset. Rather we would be living at a marina (the one I work at and I assure you prices are a hell of a lot cheaper then 2K a month try more like $700 for a 32'). This will give us a base and since we live in a beautiful spot we can do plenty of cruising locally for a while at the same time setting up the yacht over a shortish period of time to sail further and longer. Even with maintenance and upkeep we will save moeny over where we are renting now.

You see if we buy locally the yacht could need more work as we will have time. If we buy in NZ or Tas then the yacht needs to be able to safely make the crossing home.

If we buy in Americas then she needs to be in even better shape.....

Now a lot of what Mark has said is his rightful personal opinion. I however disagree with a lot of the pesimistic comments. Just because someone thinks it cant be done does not make it so.

I will adress some of the things said so that this thread can contnue to move forward in a positive manner and stay on track (this thread is about yacht selection not about our decisions/plans and if one agree on our wisdom)

Mark said "If you really want to subject a 2 year old and a baby to the riggors of the ocean on $40k you're nuts. (said in the nicest possable way with a view to: "temper my thoughts")"

That depends what the boat is and how it is prepared putting a price restriction on this does not make it relevant. I would also like to add that life is inhearently risky and by that statement we could argue that it would be unsafe to take your family on the freeway in a car older than such and such or worth less then such. FYI people that have more money have what some would call "priviledge" maybe such as better health care more expensive yachts and more insurance. But for others we are entitled to still live life and within our means. Some of the happiest people I have ever met are those in third world countries. For the the mostp part they live long happy lives with thier children growing up being better people then a lot of wealthier counterparts. (Im not talking about war torn or countries with civil unrest that are enduring much suffering)

Mark said "Let me tell you that we know what the costs are and as hard as it is for you, it will be a hell of a lot harder for you if you put to sea thinking you can do it on a wish and a prayer."

Who said anything about things being hard for us? We are just trying to move on with our dream, we are not trying to escape anything here.

You have no idea of our full intention nor the steps we plan on to get there. You are filling in the blanks from the tid bits of what I have said and you have obviously over estimated your ability to read my mind.

Mark said "Just an EPIRB with integrated GPS is reasonable percentage of the value of your boat. And yo expect to be given if for free in some super deal?"

Just because someone has the proper safety equipment on board does not make the yacht worth a lot more money it does make it more saleable. Many yachts even cheap ones have elecronics and safety gear so Im not sure what your talking about here, regardless these things to us are considered a bonus and not make or break, if the yacht was say in NZ then ithey would be a selling feature to us but those things can be purchased. BTW used electronics are no where near a reasonable percentage of our boat value. To me if that is the case with your yacht Mark you probably have way more electronics aboard than I ever wish to have.

Mark said" Also the shitlocker thats worth $40k will be a pain in the neck to sell. Maybe 2 years till you can flog it... but you want to buy another in 2 years? So you will buy one and put it on the market? There ain't no market! Look at Boatpoint and you will see the same boats as last year."

Wrong! A yacht is worth only what someone is willing to pay and I look at it like what buyers (plural) are willing to pay. So if a yacht is on the market for 2 years like so many are in Australia, whats that tell you? Yup asking way more than they are worth. Im not interested in those yachts Im not lookoing for the deal of the century either just a solid buy to which when well maintained fixed up and loved will sell for its fair value in the future.

I would also like to add I did not put a time frame on when we might choose to upgrade. Would it not be wiser to test the waters with something smaller cheaper and prhaps find out we dont want to long term cruise and be left with a nice little yacht we can take on short cruises then to wait many years invest all that money to come to the same conclusion and be left with a yacht that is to big for us to sustain as a pleasure vessel and then have to downgrade?

Mark said "A 1970's $40k boat does not require a sailor... it requires a ship buider!"

Whatever, that is such a blanketed statement.

Mark said "A new baby requires clean water, hot water, refrigeration, electricty all the things that a worksite of a boat will not supply."

Uh... we have had a child alraedy.....like I said we would be at a marina for the first while. I would say a rough estimation for doing a bit bigger cruising would be when our youngest is 2

Mark said "A 2 year old "terrible two's" requires clean water, bath times with hot water, a clear area to safely crash around in."

BTW how did humans ever survive without all the Modcons? It amazes me still that the modern world has developing nations where the people havent all died off. As far as safety issues go Ill tell you growing up on a farm is a lot more dangerouse then growing up on a yacht.

Heck its probably a lot safer then just growing up in the middle of a big city especially if you are a lower income earner (this relates to where yu would have an apartment you would take a lot of public transport etc) and yet in both cases families can grow up healthy and happy.

Mark said "Now can I mention to you what a contingency fund is? Can I mention how much it needs to be. How it will never have enough in it. How you will make one little mistake and it will screw the fund up so bad you will be miserable to the max."

So you are saying you dont have a big enough contingancy plan? If you like I can give you a lesson you see in some ways it is realitive to what the conigency is for. Example a smaller conitgency is needed for less valuable projects or ventures for other things no amount could cover you. For the most part though if you apply KISS and are thourough in your venture then you wont need as much as someone that can just be complacent and chuch money at things.

Mark said "The people who we have met whilst crusing ALL have threats to their lifestyle.
Its NOT storms, or pirates.
The threats are: Boats that don't go; partners that don't want to be there; money.

I agree

Mix 2 together and we see people with a look in their eyes that you see on bridge ledges."

Well I guess they should have bought a cheaper yacht to start with and known when to cut thier losses earlier.

Ill let you in on a recent event. We were threatened by bush fire last week with flames licking the houses across from us in that big blow we just had.
It came suddenly and we were only made aware when my wife looked out the window and saw flames. So we grabbed our ID and my wife and baby headed for safety. She asked if I wanted her to grab anything " I said is there anything you cant live without (we still had time and were not in immidiate danger) Her reply "no" She asked is there anything you cant live without I said "no" I dont really care its just stuff if you want grab the laptop or any other small items that can be sold so we can put the money toward our yacht.

You see even if it got to the point where we had we had everything into the yacht and we had to just let it go, leave it or it was destroyed, the only important thing to us is eachother. It would not bother us one bit (my wife is the same) We are survivours so where someone wants to stand on a bridge and end it all..we would be gratefull for what we had left even if that meant only life itself and the memories of lost loved ones.

Mark said "Now, there's the crux. If an old boat needs work where can you do that work. At a marina. And that costs money in Australia like you wouldnt believe. $2,000 per month in Sydney, no cheaper up the coast.
To work on the boat at anchor is very difficult. No power tools, a pain to run back and forth to the shops etc. A pain to get to work."


This is not a crux. I have summited many techinically hard alpine mountains, big walls, ice faces etc on long and envloved expeditions with chalanging logistics. I can assure you I am intement with Cruxe's in its different forms. So one this is no crux to me and two I have adressed this above.

Mark said "Have a second think about it all. If you can live simply as you say then why not work till you can afford a boat and the lifestyle?
Plus think about what you are really after: do you want to travel the world? Or are you looking for a substitute home for the one the banks wont let you buy?"

By putting up this post and the information I have provided it should be apearent that I think things through thouroughly. I assure you I have more than thought about this eeven more then the suggested once. Some may feel threatend by ones entering the cruising lifestyle on a budget perhaps afraid we might cramp their style? Perhaps some think it should be only exclusive to the materially wealthy or that its only possible to do things the way they do them....I have even met such minded people in our area but jsut because they think it does not make it so....

Now mark do you have any yacht suggestions? check my other post I have already made 2 suggestions perhaps you have some insight? I am sure you are a very knowledegable cruiser, I think you may have put the cart before the horse a bit is all. So please feel free to comment on yacht selection and I want to be clear that the main reason for responding to your remarks are that I have heard them before and so hopefully it puts that part of it to rest on this thread so we can focus on the topic. If you have other concearns not related to yacht selection please feel free to Pm me.

cheers
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:39   #36
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Now mark do you have any yacht suggestions?
Yeah, stop speaking with forked tongue, either to us or yourself: "My wife and I are determined to move on board and start cruising".
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Old 04-10-2009, 03:57   #37
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Sorry, my last sounds a bit tough on you.
Look, all this stuff is difficult.
Only you can make decisions on what you like.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:00   #38
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Thats not a yacht suggestion Mark. Your right I did say that but you have not clearly understood our intention nor should I have to explain it here, since this is off topic. It so happens that yes we will live on it for the next while at a marina and start coastal cruising more and then we will....well thats all worked out for us and frankly not part of this thread. Lets just say that when I said what I said and the reason I included things like wanting a yacht that is known for being able to circumnavigate etc. Is for my own reasons. Im afraid your intuition has led you astray.

Mark I am not sure why you are so ready to jump to conclusions? Furthermore why you feel it is your resposibilty to go off topic in order to voice your opinion on our plan? That is not the topic here so please stick to the subject.

I welcome realitive information in relation specifically to yacht selection. If I have not outright said I want the yacht for such and such then ask if you feel it would make a differance to the yacht selection. otherwise realise that not everyone is clueless and I might be making specific requests as far as yacht qualities for numerous reaons not just the one you can fathom.
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:05   #39
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Mischief,

CF.com has a "play nice" policy, which in general works very well here - but has one unfortunate side effect in not generating so many blunt responses.

To those who turn up with a bucket of dreams this can almost appear as encouragement / reinforcement...........but the reality is that folks here know that most who turn up with dreams and enthusiasm wander off - whilst here most get some advice from a few folks (who can still be bothered with this same old same old - or today were just happy chewing the fat ), some of these folks are still tied to the dock (moi ), some like MarkJ have got a few T-shirts along the way , and whilst folk like him ain't issuing advice written on tablets of stone - well worth listening to and learning from. and if lucky, engaging with.........but I appreciate everyone's way of dealing with life / people differs.

Searches on CF.com will generate a mine of similar good info for folks in your shoes (I was going to say "boat", but that of course is the question ).
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Old 04-10-2009, 04:44   #40
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Fair enough.
I have searched and red a lot on this forum and others, many books and talked with many locals (most though more interested in regattas even a few full time cruisers. One of the resaons I included some history of where we are and where we have come from is to give some evidance that this is not a mere fantasy for us.

So to be sure I really do apreciate the advice specifically to yacht selection that all have givin here and after sifting through many of the same old what yacht should I buy thread this is different, because I have determined what I want I just dont know what available yacht makes fit the bill althouygh I know some and am looking for more options. I had hoped this along with the other background and aditional onfo I provided would be enough to keep the post on topic.

If I have somehow offended anyone though then I give my humble apology as that was not my intent. Rather I believe if this thread stays on topic it could be an excellent resource for others....
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Old 04-10-2009, 05:50   #41
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Mischief,

Hang in there, for I am sure you will find the boat best suited for your budget and demands. Don't let anyone talk you out of your dreams. There requirements might not be the same as yours. Check out on the net the voyages of S/V Atom and see what he had when he started his trip.

Seven years ago I bought a 1964 Alberg 30 for $12000 and put in another $5000.00 for refit and $5000.00 cruising kitty. So my total was $22000.00 for 18 months in both Eastern and Western Caribbean. Not to bad for the playground I was at.

Don’t dream your dream live your dream before it is too late.

Best of Luck
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Old 04-10-2009, 07:11   #42
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Thanks Bill,
So far seems like the top contender would be a Compass built H28 if we purchased within the next year or two, I am still interested in looking into other options though.
Also more overseas models that might be ideal if we have not found the right yacht locally after a couple of years. By then we would have, according to our calculations $50K AUD to buy and prep/provision and sail back plus a line of credit for all import costs. I know its not much but its doable of course at some cost (size or comfort or safety or and...) and that I guess would help us decide if it would be worth it or put the extra monies into a yacht here. I guess we wont know until we have been able to fully research our options and weigh up all the pros and cons......
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Old 04-10-2009, 07:34   #43
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There is an interesting saying on the English South Coast that the ideal boat is no more 15 miles from your location. How true it was for us, about 8 miles as it happens.

If your looking at websites and brokers advertising boats you are competing with everyone else but on a limited budget. So how about being pro-active yourself. Place notices on the yacht club boards and around the marina. Look for boats that haven't moved, if any look unkept so much the better, that will put off other pssible buyers. Find one and speak to the boatyard or place notice on the boat asking if they want to sell etc. Finally take your time, there will be the right boat for you both out there. You don't need to go now you could take 2 years over it, build up the funds and then move quickly when the right on does appear.

Forums are great for sounding out ideas. Mark has given you his honest opinion, his goal is to make you consider about a number of different issues and avoid mistakes many will have made themselves. However the other way to use the forum is to find a boat and then ask about it. You might get several different views but at least you will have the opinions of folk who don't have a vested interest unlike an seller or a broker.

Take your time, she will be out there.

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Old 04-10-2009, 08:13   #44
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Points well taken Pete,
thanks.
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Old 04-10-2009, 09:42   #45
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mischief- there may be another way. Here in the US alot of boats are getting auctioned off for old marina fees. Often I have seen a bluewater cruiser go for pennies on the dollar because the owner died of old age, and nobody in thier family wanted to mess with it.
Sometimes a boat goes because the owner has just lost interest. I saw a Valiant 32 (like the ones raced in the North Pacific) going for well under 30k, and at another time saw a Shannon 38 ketch for about the same price.
Both of these are very high quality boats that just fell on hard times. If I was you that's what I would be looking for.
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