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Old 10-04-2014, 13:36   #1
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What Sailboats Heel the Least

I saw a Benetaue 441. The owner told me it does not heel over very far. That the bulb on the keel keeps it relatively flat while under way.

Are there other sailboats that can travel fast and flat? The reason I ask is I thought all sailboats heel over. To hear that some don't kinda surprised me.



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Old 10-04-2014, 13:37   #2
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

catamarans
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Old 10-04-2014, 13:41   #3
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

Catamarans heel the least.

I just googled Beneteau 441 - does it even exist? Do you mean a 411?
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Old 10-04-2014, 13:45   #4
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

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Originally Posted by tuffr2 View Post
I saw a Benetaue 441. The owner told me it does not heel over very far. That the bulb on the keel keeps it relatively flat while under way.
Sounds like a B.S. sales pitch to me.
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Old 10-04-2014, 14:13   #5
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

Keel weight and the location of that weight in relation to depth of the keel affect heeling. Other factors like hull shape have an effect on heeling angle/stiffness that is even greater.

The newer flat bottomed boats are stiffer initially and speed is seriously degraded if they sailed at healing angles much beyond 15 degrees. Though they may sail more upright they have a quicker, more uncomfortable motion and no bilge sump to trap any water that gets below.

The older slack bilged boats are initially less stable but but ultimately become much more stable as heel angles increase. They sail at greater heel angles, 15-20 degrees, but do it with a softer motion. In the case of full keel boats, they have slack bilges to decrease wetted surface increasing light air performance. They also have decent sumps which traps any water that gets below, it always does, making for a much dryer ride below.

If healing angle is a concern, spend the big bucks for a multihull. All mono hulls heel, some a little more than others.
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Old 10-04-2014, 14:26   #6
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

@roverhi nice answer +1
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Old 10-04-2014, 14:54   #7
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

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Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
@roverhi nice answer +1
Really???

You didn't even see my answer yet...

I coulda been a nice answer too... Maybe nicer... Who knows now?

Tuff... meh thinks the owner was yankin' yer bulb...

(and rovrhi does have an awfully nice answer...)
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Old 10-04-2014, 15:12   #8
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

All monohulls heel. Bulb keel mean you can carry more sail for the amount of wind for otherwise equal boats. As stated above it's more dependent on hull shape as to what the maximum heel angle is before the boat rapidly becomes more inefficient and so when you start to depower.
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Old 10-04-2014, 15:17   #9
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

A dismasted sailboat doesn't heel that well either....
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Old 10-04-2014, 16:23   #10
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
....
The older slack bilged boats are initially less stable but but ultimately become much more stable as heel angles increase. They sail at greater heel angles, 15-20 degrees, but do it with a softer motion. ....

If healing angle is a concern, spend the big bucks for a multihull. All mono hulls heel, some a little more than others.
It is more than a little. Some narrow boats in anything less than light winds sail always over 20 and with stronger winds sail with 30/35 while some modern cruisers like the Beneteau Sense or Oceanis sails with about half the heel. Half the heel is more than a "little"

What you say regarding the stability increasing on a older slack bilged boats being much more stable at higher angles of heel is obviously true but the same thing happens with a modern boat that sails with little heel like the Beneteaus.

The Max RM on one of those modern boats is normally at about 50 of heel. That means that even if a Beneteau Sense or Oceanis sails better with a Max heel of 15, when it heels more its stability increases drastically. This means that all that increase in stability, from 15 till 50, where the stability is at is peak, is a big safety feature and represents a huge reserve stability. On a boat that sails with a heel of 30/35 and has a Max RM at 50 or 55, that reserve stability is actually a lot less.
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Old 10-04-2014, 16:53   #11
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

Then why do the fat, flat bottomed boats have lesser ultimate stability?? Older designs will not stay inverted while some the newer boats will in calm water. Yes the fat, flat bottom designs may have a greater stability as the heel angle increases to the max but falls off a cliff once past that max point some even going into negative righting moment. The older designs don't do this. Also, the newer boats take a much bigger hit in performance as the heel angle increases beyond a maximum. Don't think any reasonable design will sail all that efficiently with a heel angle greater that 25 degrees. Granted, the ease of movement below gets more difficult as heel angle progresses beyond 20 degrees. In any case, don't think any boat will turn turtle from wind pressure alone. It takes a combination of wind and waves to roll a boat more than 80 degrees or so. From experience, the fun quotient turns into pucker factor when the spreaders hit the water.

[/QUOTE] Max RM on one of those modern boats is normally at about 50 of heel. That means that even if a Beneteau Sense or Oceanis sails better with a Max heel of 15, when it heels more its stability increases drastically. This means that all that increase in stability, from 15 till 50, where the stability is at is peak, is a big safety feature and represents a huge reserve stability. On a boat that sails with a heel of 30/35 and has a Max RM at 50 or 55, that reserve stability is actually a lot less.[/QUOTE]
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:07   #12
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

The flattest sailing boats are catamarans period. Just after that are trimarans, that tend to heel just enough to lift one wing out of the water then stop.

For monohulls, modern high performance canting keel boats are by far the flattest sailing, but also the trickiest to sail, have enormous loads because of the keel, but are insainly fast compared to other boats.

After this are wide flat bottomed boats with long narrow keels with big bulbs. They have tremendous initial stability from the flat bottom, and a lot of RM from the keel even at low angles of heel. However they also have disadvantages.

Personally I find the old full keeled boats to have a terrible motion, and living at 20 degrees for days bothers me more than a slightly faster motion in a more modern design, but YMMV.
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:12   #13
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

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Originally Posted by Downhill View Post
A dismasted sailboat doesn't heel that well either....
My first thought on the question was a boat at dock...
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:30   #14
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

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Then why do the fat, flat bottomed boats have lesser ultimate stability?? Older designs will not stay inverted while some the newer boats will in calm water.
I will not continue this because I don't want to be out of topic but I don't know of what you are talking about:

http://youtu.be/HdljjQto6BM

Flatter and beamier than this one is dificult to find. There are very few old boats that will be able to re right themselves in calm water. For that they would need to have no negative stability, that means a 180 AVS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
Yes the fat, flat bottom designs may have a greater stability as the heel angle increases to the max but falls off a cliff once past that max point some even going into negative righting moment. The older designs don't do this.
This is simply not true. You are describing a multihull stability curve. Each case is a case but generically modern boats have a much bigger RM at 90 (even if with a smaller AVS) than the typical old narrower boat.

That one about negative righting moment I don't get it unless you are talking about inverted stability that almost all boats have, older and newer designs.

I did not yet finish the series of posts on my blog about stability but what you say is already been treated in what regards misconceptions. Note that I am not saying that an old boat is unsafe or less safe than a modern boat or vice verse. You have to understand how each boats work in what regards stability and to look at each case in particular. There are old good boats and many old bad boats. There are less bad modern boats (RCD plays a part) but there are some clearly better than others in what concerns reserve stability.

Have a look:

Interesting Sailboats: STABILITY - 1 : MISLEADING INFORMATION ABOUT STABILITY

Interesting Sailboats: STABILITY 1 : MISLEADING INFORMATION ABOUT STABILITY (cont.)

Interesting Sailboats: STABILITY 1: MISLEADING BOATS - Hanse 345 / HR 342
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Old 10-04-2014, 17:36   #15
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

I think one measurement for you is Initial Stability. In a nutshell beamier boats have better initial stablility... the width helps them to resist heeling. Ballast helps stability, but a heavily ballasted narrow boat will will heel very quickly and deeply. A good example is the Folkboat or Contessa 26 type. Lots of these have maybe a 50% ballast ratio. (Let's just say half the boat weight is in ballast.) However, the slightest puff of wind and they are heeled 15 degrees or more. My Contessa seemed to get in the groove and stay there at about 20 degree heel. So once at that heel they seem to settle down and stay solid.... but it's a wet ride. Some Beneteaus have only like 25% ballast! So there's a big difference. There are benefits to both types, (the heavier ballasted boat may be less likley to roll completely over in the "perfect" storm) but most people in today's world prefer the beamier feel.... or the builders are building the wrong boats!
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