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Old 11-04-2014, 04:49   #46
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

I have never heard of Morgan building a bilge keel sailboat and I am a skeptic that it was ever done.
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Old 11-04-2014, 04:56   #47
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

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Originally Posted by cal40john View Post

Shannon ad
A Motorsailer that Actually Sails
high stability hull: 17’-6” beam means less rolling at anchor and comfortable 15 degree or less heel angles underway. Excellent stability curves.
I have to say, this vessel is the one that caught my eye.
So very beautiful and well designed.....

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Old 11-04-2014, 06:12   #48
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Thanks I will look at these boats on-line. BTW - this was not a salesman that said this. This was a person in a group of people where I was asking boat questions. They said for me to stop by at the marina and see their 'live aboard' boat.

What I think I learned.

1. There are sailboats that heel less than others.

2. On an outboard powered sailboat the prop will come out of the water in heavy seas.

3. This boat had 'in mast furrling'. I asked were the sail was...ugh

4. You can find a sand bar, wait for the tide to go out. (The term escapes me) and let your boat lean on it side and clean most of the bottom. Then wait and lean the boat over on the other side the next low tide.

You sailors are fascinating people and really know your boats.

It seems that it would be difficult function on a boat that heels 30°. Fun for 30 minutes then it has to get old.

I have watched youtube videos of the guy that walks on the keel of a Open 60 type of boat. Ugh, that boat heels too much for me...lol Cool - sure, but no one is cooking when the boat is on it's side.

Thanks

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Old 11-04-2014, 06:29   #49
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

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Originally Posted by tuffr2 View Post
Thanks I will look at these boats on-line. BTW - this was not a salesman that said this. This was a person in a group of people where I was asking boat questions. They said for me to stop by at the marina and see their 'live aboard' boat.

What I think I learned.

1. There are sailboats that heel less than others.

2. On an outboard powered sailboat the prop will come out of the water in heavy seas.

3. This boat had 'in mast furrling'. I asked were the sail was...ugh

4. You can find a sand bar, wait for the tide to go out. (The term escapes me) and let your boat lean on it side and clean most of the bottom. Then wait and lean the boat over on the other side the next low tide.

You sailors are fascinating people and really know your boats.

It seems that it would be difficult function on a boat that heels 30°. Fun for 30 minutes then it has to get old.

I have watched youtube videos of the guy that walks on the keel of a Open 60 type of boat. Ugh, that boat heels too much for me...lol Cool - sure, but no one is cooking when the boat is on it's side.

Thanks

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Tuffr2
spend a month learning about boats by taking day sailing and going on outings.. DO NOT BUY A VESSEL YET. Dont even think about buying.... you dont know what you would like.

Again.....You dont know what you would like. Words dont describe what you have to experience.

Your first boat will not be your last...... but get it close to what you want.
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Old 11-04-2014, 10:38   #50
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

The open 60's don't usually sail at heel angles like the one for the ad, very cool ad by the way. Given enough wind the new Shannon would also put the decks underwater.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:33   #51
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

I am surprised that there has been no mention of sail design in regard to heeling. I believe gaff rigged boats tend to heel less, due to a lower centre of force, although someone of more experience could correct me on this.
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:40   #52
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

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Originally Posted by robert sailor View Post
The open 60's don't usually sail at heel angles like the one for the ad, very cool ad by the way. Given enough wind the new Shannon would also put the decks underwater.
Bruce and me would be having words in that event!
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Old 11-04-2014, 11:59   #53
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Interesting reading guys. I have a lot of time sailing our William garden M40 ketch in various conditions off the coast and around Puget sound and have to say it is a very forgiving boat. in reasonable weather (wind up to 35 knots) it is hard to bury a rail with jib, main and mizzen up. In heavy weather I am very impressed on how stable it is.
Its fairly beamy hull with a traditional full keel
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Old 11-04-2014, 12:13   #54
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

While I understand the question, and I really do, as the input from the OP developed, it really has become, for him, a much broader and deeper requirement that he tries different vessels.

Put a sail up and everything will lean a bit. the results in making it lean less is an altered 'ride'. Some motions he might live with some he might not.

Dont listen to us for YOUR choice. YES, we can advise on sail design. on hull design, on the merits of fin, daggerboards, single keel double keel etc......... and this good advice, for it comes from a lot of knowledgable people, will mean nothing until you understand the differences by being on the different vessels.

I would STRONGLY advice again, that you go take some demo sails from different places, and start there.

for example, a lot of people, some here too, would knock a multihull for lots of reasons, and in my experience, only two reasons would be valid.
  • at certain angles with some older models, sailing is not good.
  • the person doesnt like them.
I personally have been persuaded through experience that I am happiest on a multihull because of the lack of heel, the space, the ease of use and the sheer pleasure of not having to pack everything away prior to sailing...


We are all WITH YOU on your journey to purchase, but cant give you experience of the types.



Good luck.


ps..... did I mention that I like multihulls?
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Old 11-04-2014, 12:59   #55
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

I may be wrong but the OP seems to think boats sail at either 15 degrees heel or 30 degrees os some other angle at ALL times. That is simply not the case. Flat bottomed boats sail more efficiently at lower angles of heel while slack bilged boats sail best at greater angles but almost never more than 25 degrees and quite often less. Just because a boat sails more efficiently at a certain angle of heel, doesn't mean you HAVE to sail or can even achieve that angle. You can dial in the heel angle from mild to extreme by reefing, furling or changing out a sail. It's your choice to decrease or increase the heel angle under all but storm conditions.

I've mostly sailed full keel, slack bilged boats and have never purposely sailed at greater than about 20 degrees of heel for any length of time. The uninitiated seem to think extreme angles of heel translates into better boat speed. We've all seen boats sailing with the rail well underwater as they make little forward progress while making almost as much leeway as forward motion. Hell, when I was young and stupid used to purposely bury the rail and keep it there, wind permitting, just for the thrill of it.

The point of sail also makes a big difference in heel angle. Hard on the wind creates the greatest angle of heel. But that's hardly a problem as I purposely avoid sailing hard on the wind unless absolutely forced to go in that direction. In around 100 days at sea on passages, have only spent 4 days beating. Once you crack off a bit, heel angles will almost always be less no matter what the boat's initial stability factor is.
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Old 11-04-2014, 13:09   #56
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

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Originally Posted by roverhi View Post
I may be wrong but the OP seems to think boats sail at either 15 degrees heel or 30 degrees os some other angle at ALL times. That is simply not the case. Flat bottomed boats sail more efficiently at lower angles of heel while slack bilged boats sail best at greater angles but almost never more than 25 degrees and quite often less. Just because a boat sails more efficiently at a certain angle of heel, doesn't mean you HAVE to sail or can even achieve that angle. You can dial in the heel angle from mild to extreme by reefing, furling or changing out a sail. It's your choice to decrease or increase the heel angle under all but storm conditions.

I've mostly sailed full keel, slack bilged boats and have never purposely sailed at greater than about 20 degrees of heel for any length of time. The uninitiated seem to think extreme angles of heel translates into better boat speed. We've all seen boats sailing with the rail well underwater as they make little forward progress while making almost as much leeway as forward motion. Hell, when I was young and stupid used to purposely bury the rail and keep it there, wind permitting, just for the thrill of it.

The point of sail also makes a big difference in heel angle. Hard on the wind creates the greatest angle of heel. But that's hardly a problem as I purposely avoid sailing hard on the wind unless absolutely forced to go in that direction. In around 100 days at sea on passages, have only spent 4 days beating. Once you crack off a bit, heel angles will almost always be less no matter what the boat's initial stability factor is.
Isnt that the point? He doesnt know that he doesnt know....... he needs to try several boats to understand. A minute of experience is worth 10000 words.
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Old 11-04-2014, 13:58   #57
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

Keep in mind that the reason a sailboat heels is to reduce the sail area by spilling wind , if its over to far to suit ya just reduce sail in any of many ways . Sailboats will have an angle of heel at which performance suffers . Beginners will think that they are really honking when they are way over , not so , ease the sails out , lessen the heel and pick up speed .
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Old 11-04-2014, 15:11   #58
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Re: What sailboats heel the least

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The flattest sailing boats are catamarans period. Just after that are trimarans, that tend to heel just enough to lift one wing out of the water then stop.

For monohulls, modern high performance canting keel boats are by far the flattest sailing, but also the trickiest to sail, have enormous loads because of the keel, but are insainly fast compared to other boats.
Except for multihulls.
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Old 11-04-2014, 16:16   #59
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

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Keep in mind that the reason a sailboat heels is to reduce the sail area by spilling wind , if its over to far to suit ya just reduce sail in any of many ways . Sailboats will have an angle of heel at which performance suffers . Beginners will think that they are really honking when they are way over , not so , ease the sails out , lessen the heel and pick up speed .
Yes, when a boat heels the sails take less wind but it is not the reason why a sailboats heels.

Sailboats heels to create righting moment that counteracts the wind force that is applied to the sails. Beamier boats (or multihulls) have a lot more form stability and need to heel less to counteract that wind force on the sails.

Narrow boats rely more on the righting moment created by the lowering of the center of gravity (keel ballast) need to heel more to created the needed force (righting moment).
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Old 11-04-2014, 18:41   #60
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Re: What Sailboats Heel the Least

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Yes, when a boat heels the sails take less wind but it is not the reason why a sailboats heels.

Sailboats heels to create righting moment that counteracts the wind force that is applied to the sails. Beamier boats (or multihulls) have a lot more form stability and need to heel less to counteract that wind force on the sails.

Narrow boats rely more on the righting moment created by the lowering of the center of gravity (keel ballast) need to heel more to created the needed force (righting moment).
So explain why my narrow boat doesn't heel much at all?! The view of wider equals less heel is simplistic and only valid for the average design. There are enough exceptions to that mid stream design to make it flawed. The effect of hull-shape moving through water at speed is completely left out for example. Still, it is what provides our bow the lift and why it doesn't bury in every wave. Also, my boat is a planing design as are many that are discussed in this thread. Planing is a different playing field. Multi-hulls do not plane but also escape the rules of displacement hulls.

Then there's the capsizing in waves. Here the "slid factor" becomes important and boats with winged keels, bulb keels, low freeboards, flush decks etc. are more at risk than their opposite.
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